Cyclical Storage Logic (Personal Data)
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@JaredBusch said:
I don't accept a client that tries to make me justify something. A client like this is not a client that understands that their IT is critical to their business succeeding. A client that does not understand that IT is critical to their business is not a client that I want. I fire those clients if they get past initial screening of "is this company a good client"
That is our motto 100%
The "bad cases" are mostly people I know personally. Close friends who own businesses or relatives. Never random companies.
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Here is the thing...
A company that hires an MSP to "do the work but not to think about it" is going to have a bad time. If you need an MSP to press the buttons for you but you think that you know better which buttons need to be pressed... you have fundamental cognitive failing on behalf of management. Imagine if I went to my mechanic and said "I have zero clue how to change my oil, but I know that you need to use this tool and that part to do it." That would be crazy. If I don't know how to change my oil, I simply don't know enough to make those decisions.
As IT consultants we have to decide - do we consult and help or are THEY the IT people and we just press the buttons that they tell us to press. If we do the latter, we really don't have any value.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@BRRABill said:
I still help them. I'm not going to criticize and move on.
No, but explaining to them that they are creating their own risk and bypassing the natural protections that normal people have is important. Do this still do it because people enable them or because they truly don't understand the risks that they choose to take?
how many people that you have told this to have actually changed their behavior to follow your suggestions? Non techie people?
Actually, a lot. I don't deal with many non-business people, but those that I do pretty universally have moved to zero data storage models and are SO thankful.
You're a better sales person than me then for sure!
A key difference between me and most people is... I never allow it to be social acceptable. I never act like making reckless decisions is somehow "okay". I do say that there are many ways to skin a cat, there isn't just one "right way"... but there are bad ways and bad ideas and I never let people feel like they got away with it.
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@BRRABill said:
The "bad cases" are mostly people I know personally. Close friends who own businesses or relatives. Never random companies.
Typically not people who would see themselves as a real business, most likely.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Here is the thing...
A company that hires an MSP to "do the work but not to think about it" is going to have a bad time. If you need an MSP to press the buttons for you but you think that you know better which buttons need to be pressed... you have fundamental cognitive failing on behalf of management. Imagine if I went to my mechanic and said "I have zero clue how to change my oil, but I know that you need to use this tool and that part to do it." That would be crazy. If I don't know how to change my oil, I simply don't know enough to make those decisions.
As IT consultants we have to decide - do we consult and help or are THEY the IT people and we just press the buttons that they tell us to press. If we do the latter, we really don't have any value.
The sad thing is there are enough fake IT people out there that are willing to do exactly that. And those people muddle through enough to stay open for a while driving prices down.
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@Dashrender said:
The sad thing is there are enough fake IT people out there that are willing to do exactly that. And those people muddle through enough to stay open for a while driving prices down.
Of course. As many as "fake business people" are willing to hire. There is a huge business is being "yes men" rather than "IT pros."
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I too have a client who gets business advice from someone who is adamantly opposed to 'cloud' services for the same reason. Don't know how long they will be around. Additionally they believe they are more prone to be hacked. There has been no reasoning with them. They simply won't hear it.
That's the thing. Irrational, non-business oriented little businesses rarely stay around. The average small business is going to fail. Like 80% or more fail in the first few years. So encouraging them, coddling them, making them feel like it is okay to "be average" is really just a way of helping them close up shop. You aren't doing them any favours by making them feel like it is okay to fail. It IS okay to fail, most people do. But if the goal is to assist them, this doesn't do it.
I'm not coddling them. I inform them of why these are bad decisions every time a discussion comes up. The only thing left for me is to drop them.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Typically not people who would see themselves as a real business, most likely.
These are people all of whom have been in business for 20+ years.
They stay in business by being shrewd.
Everyone cuts corners somewhere and makes it work.
Not saying it's right. Just surprised you haven't seen it more. It's almost all I see in the SOHO market.
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@Dashrender said:
I'm not coddling them. I inform them of why these are bad decisions every time a discussion comes up. The only thing left for me is to drop them.
Do you make it clear that they are not following the most basic of business practices - like listening to the hired experts? Do you make it clear that you see them as "playing" at business and not taking it seriously and operating like a hobby? Because that's what I mean - letting them go home and night and not feel embarrassed.
It's tough love, but if I let clients go home feeling like their ridiculous decisions aren't being laughed at and that we don't see them as "children playing at business" I'm just making it seem socially acceptable to keep doing that. I make it clear that I don't take them seriously any more as they clearly don't take themselves seriously.
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@BRRABill said:
Everyone cuts corners somewhere and makes it work.
It's not cutting corners, that's a horrible mentality because it enables it.
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@BRRABill said:
They stay in business by being shrewd.
Good IT is always shrewd. What we are talking about is being reckless or not being smart. Very different things.
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@BRRABill said:
These are people all of whom have been in business for 20+ years.
Tons and tons of businesses do poorly for forever. Doctors offices are a great example. It's easy for a doctor to earn enough to have a "failing" business that they prop up for forever. They'll never earn anywhere nearly what they could have - they pay for the business out of their own income. I see this with nearly every doctor that owns a business. They could be rich, but prefer to "play" at business and be only middle class.
They stay in business indefinitely, but the business itself is always losing.
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@BRRABill said:
Everyone cuts corners somewhere and makes it work.
You need to define "it worked." The biggest aspect of IT is managing costs. When I see these companies, they are always bleeding money on IT. Saying "it works" when IT costs way too much is misleading. That's like saying that towing wagons with Ferraris works. Sure they burn out and you have to replace them constantly. Sure you spent 1,000x what you should spend. Sure they don't do a good job pulling. But far too often in IT we'd excuse that waste of money as "well it worked."
We need to change our definition of what "it worked" means. It's too often the opposite of doing well and is often used to mean "got lucky."
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What I mean is...
There are many things any company is sold on, be it insurance, benefits, rent, whatever, that they have to make risk and reward type decisions.
We are in IT. We think it's the most important. But there is probably an insurance forum somewhere called chocolatefrappe.ins that is bashing companies for not having a full insurance policy or something. Or an alarm company that thinks it's crazy not to have the bells and whistles alarm vs. the basic. Every industry think theirs is the most important.
I'm not saying it is right. i am just saying I see it all the time, and from other MSPs I talk to, it's all they see. Very few people get IT, or easily accept what is needed.
Does that mean IU'll stop preaching it, no. Just saying it's very prevalent.
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@BRRABill said:
What I mean is...
There are many things any company is sold on, be it insurance, benefits, rent, whatever, that they have to make risk and reward type decisions.
We are in IT. We think it's the most important. But there is probably an insurance forum somewhere called chocolatefrappe.ins that is bashing companies for not having a full insurance policy or something. Or an alarm company that thinks it's crazy not to have the bells and whistles alarm vs. the basic. Every industry think theirs is the most important.
I'm not saying it is right. i am just saying I see it all the time, and from other MSPs I talk to, it's all they see. Very few people get IT, or easily accept what is needed.
Does that mean IU'll stop preaching it, no. Just saying it's very prevalent.
See, no where did I say IT was the most important. I would be wrong if I said that. I said I drop clients that do not see IT as critical to the success of their business.
Most things are critical to the success of a business, if that business wants to actually succeed.
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@BRRABill said:
We are in IT. We think it's the most important.
Certainly not. You can't be good at IT and think that. IT always exists within the scope of the business and making money. That's why good decisions for IT are always good decisions for the business - because they are one and the same. IT without a business context is just "playing with computers."
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@BRRABill said:
But there is probably an insurance forum somewhere called chocolatefrappe.ins that is bashing companies for not having a full insurance policy or something. Or an alarm company that thinks it's crazy not to have the bells and whistles alarm vs. the basic. Every industry think theirs is the most important.
I wouldn't be surprised - but that is because unlike IT, those are NOT business-aligned fields. They have one job - to sell things to customers. That's it. They make things to sell. They are not part of the business.
IT is part of the business. That's why we are always talking about how businesses are overspending, how they are wasting money or being reckless. Often our job is to stop the business from spending on IT where it doesn't make sense or to spend wisely, not to spend more.
If you feel that IT is the most important aspect of the business, you should probably not be in IT. That's not a healthy view that anyone in an IT decision making role can have without causing damage to the business.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I'm not coddling them. I inform them of why these are bad decisions every time a discussion comes up. The only thing left for me is to drop them.
Do you make it clear that they are not following the most basic of business practices - like listening to the hired experts? Do you make it clear that you see them as "playing" at business and not taking it seriously and operating like a hobby? Because that's what I mean - letting them go home and night and not feel embarrassed.
It's tough love, but if I let clients go home feeling like their ridiculous decisions aren't being laughed at and that we don't see them as "children playing at business" I'm just making it seem socially acceptable to keep doing that. I make it clear that I don't take them seriously any more as they clearly don't take themselves seriously.
No, unlike you I don't have the stones to flatly look someone in face and say those things to them in general. Mostly because of the financial aspect of saying those things. Nor have I know any consultant or MSP who would either (with the exception of you).
I have to ask @art_of_shred If any NTG consultant said that to a client, would you as the owner/manager be OK with that?
I would think it would only be OK with saying something like this if you are basically giving the client a last chance before you fire them as a client.
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No don't get me wrong. I WANT to say those things to them. I want to make them understand how foolish I feel they are being in an attempt to save a few bucks, and give them the best setup for their dollar.
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@Dashrender said:
Nor have I know any consultant or MSP who would either (with the exception of you).
You know one at least.
