ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
This is the "idea" that I am saying is wrong. The idea is wrong is a red herring, it is a proximate cause. The root cause is how that idea was formed. Correcting the idea does not lead to growth. It might fix the problem at hand, but it is a band aid. It's false improvement. It's the person that created the idea that needs to change in order to grow.
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I just upgraded an install at a client from 8.2.4 to 9.0.2.
The install completed but it broke the install and I had to manually fix it.
This system was running the CentOS 7 core PHP 5.4.
What broke was the Apache owncloud.conf file.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
That's a totally different case, and I'd argue that it is still wrong. You are still talking about a bandaid. Fix racism, for example, and you only cover up a human process that bring it about. If you could fix the people, racism would not come up at all. And you'd not have to fight it over and over again.
The idea here isn't very important. Jared or I could be right, the end result is only slightly different. What matters is correctly what leads to the mistake so that the same mistakes are not made over and over again.
Stop racism once, it just comes back. Fix the people, racism goes away.
Most people don't want to be fixed, you can't force it. So that doesn't work for racism or the general public. But it does work when people want to grow.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
You address the person and confront the idea. The issue isn't you if you're wrong it's the idea/concept. .
Correcting the idea does not lead to growth.
I'm very surprised you said this.
We are people of varying intelligence. What are the expectations of people who are developing at a lower/average rate? You can't be reasonable and have the expectation that these people will all develop their own ideas and concepts. The majority of people accept what they are told (there are varying degrees of this). That is why racism, terrorism and a lot of other -ism's exist. The individual is not the issue, the concept is. That is what we need to challenge.
That's a totally different case, and I'd argue that it is still wrong. You are still talking about a bandaid. Fix racism, for example, and you only cover up a human process that bring it about. If you could fix the people, racism would not come up at all. And you'd not have to fight it over and over again.
The idea here isn't very important. Jared or I could be right, the end result is only slightly different. What matters is correctly what leads to the mistake so that the same mistakes are not made over and over again.
Stop racism once, it just comes back. Fix the people, racism goes away.
Most people don't want to be fixed, you can't force it. So that doesn't work for racism or the general public. But it does work when people want to grow.
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
Of course I do not actually say that. But, it is what the person is not saying when these situations come up.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
F[moderated] kind. I am not going to hold your hand and teach you.
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
You could very easily just teach them logically while being kind. What part of telling them they are stupid and uninformed is necessary?
F[moderated\ kind. I am not going to hold your hand and teach you.
Its your choice how you interact with the world. If we were discussing IT and I questioned something you couldn't justify wouldn't you be obligated to change your stance on it? Isn't that what this is?
Is there ever a good reason to not be kind?
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@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@JaredBusch said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
This is turning into a nature vs. nurture argument. You can't change human nature but you can change the nurture part of it which are the ideas and concepts being taught. I agree that people have to be open to change in order for anything to work and that is always a struggle.
No, it remains proximate versus root. People do change and grow. Ideas are just artefacts of people. You fix ideas when you are a business and don't care about developing your people. You fix people when you care about keeping people and improving them.
My takeaway: fix ideas when people are disposable. Fix people when people matter.
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
If you were my employee, I would train you on the reasons why that is not true. If you persist, I would fire you.
So you would challenge the idea and expect me to change my thought process if I could not factually support my argument, correct?
Yes, that is fixing the person. It has nothing to do with the idea.
But it's the idea you're challenging, not the person. I think we agree on this.
No. I am calling you stupid and uninformed. Then teaching you logically. If you then still insist to not learn, I fire you.
Which is a personal attack. The very thing that I am saying is completely unconstructive and pointless.
Of course I do not actually say that. But, it is what the person is not saying when these situations come up.
I don't think in that way. I myself have a serious lack of knowledge and I'm not going to forget where I came from and who helped me along the way (you included) when that is no longer the case.
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@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
We'd start by discussing why you feel this way. We have to get to a root cause. It requires diagnosis.
First step is determining if it is true. Maybe you are right and DHCP IS bad in every situation and you have a good reason for it, in which case I can learn something. But assuming that it is wrong, we need to find out why you feel it is true. That's the starting point.
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@scottalanmiller said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
@wirestyle22 said in ownCloud 9.0.2 with PHP 7:
If I said DHCP is bad in every situation. How would you fix me?
We'd start by discussing why you feel this way. We have to get to a root cause. It requires diagnosis.
First step is determining if it is true. Maybe you are right and DHCP IS bad in every situation and you have a good reason for it, in which case I can learn something. But assuming that it is wrong, we need to find out why you feel it is true. That's the starting point.
So you're correcting the concept not the person. I am not just a collection of facts and concepts. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.
