Tell me about how HP deal registrations work
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@scottalanmiller said:
And also advice on things only a VAR would know...
A common example is "that desktop is $500 and available normally. But we see this other one in a warehouse around the corner for $550, you could have it today." That's valuable info. We can decide it $50 to get something slightly better sooner makes sense.
Or they might know that the drive we want it a month out, but this other drive that is a little smaller is available now.
Logistics are a huge part of VAR value.
I expect decent VARs to provide that service regardless of whether I buy from them exclusively or use two or three VARs.
I suspect Dashrender's issue to be because he used a crap VAR, not because he wasn't monogamous.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
OK, so if you don't get advice of a VAR, what do you get from them? Where is the "Value Added" bit?
Advice and confirmation that the parts you asked for all all correct for the need is the point of a VAR.
If oyu are not doing that, then you are just wasting everyone's time and money. Just guy buy your shit from random Ebay seller 42.
Advice? I Thought Scott's being saying for years that the advice should come from paid professionals? Now if you're talking about advice within say the RAID controllers themselves on a specific server chassis, well maybe, but even then, other than compatibility within the parts list, I don't expect to much if any advice.
No, you missed the point here. When you send a VAR a list of hardware, the need for advice on what you need for project X is already over.
You are getting advice that the parts you are asking for are all correct and that you did not make a mistake by buying the wrong HP iLO license.
Thew VAR should know this information because you have always worked with them as a partner. So they should know when you send in the RFQ with the wrong shit that it will be a phone call back to you to confirm instead of just dumping out a quote.
This is why you had the wrong thing like 2-3 times. You treat the VAR as a reseller and only ever tell them what to order. So the VAR never bothers to care about your stuff and did not check that you ordered the wrong thing.
Two huge problems with this.
- did you see this
other than compatibility within the parts list,
So I covered the call back portion of your argument already.
- in the stated case bout the iLo - I actually put in a RFQ as it were providing my server model and serial number for the first request. Only after that purchase was wrong did I do my own additional research, which also wound up being wrong, finally reaching out to HP directly and after 2+ hours on the phone with them... finding the right part number.
So I did the right thing in the first place - I treated them like a VAR - gave them the scope and they unfortunately came back with the wrong stuff - fine that happens, and it's the first time with this VAR, so I'm not that upset and I will continue to use them..
That's why I mentioned "within reason" in one of the earlier posts. Everyone makes mistakes, that's going to happen. VARs have a tough job, as does all of IT, in that they are constantly facing new products and changes and expect to know everything and if they don't see a certain request often, they might not be that experienced with it. Or they can just make a mistake. How they handle the mistake is, to me, far more important than that they made it.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
And also advice on things only a VAR would know...
A common example is "that desktop is $500 and available normally. But we see this other one in a warehouse around the corner for $550, you could have it today." That's valuable info. We can decide it $50 to get something slightly better sooner makes sense.
Or they might know that the drive we want it a month out, but this other drive that is a little smaller is available now.
Logistics are a huge part of VAR value.
I expect decent VARs to provide that service regardless of whether I buy from them exclusively or use two or three VARs.
They might or they might not. If you are looking for the lowest price they are likely to look to get out with doing the least work. Their service level doesn't consistently mean that they will get your business, having a low price does, and their ability to keep the price low requires them to do as little work as possible. Price shopping is how you tell them to skimp on services and research and focus on keeping the price down.
Our VARs know our locations, out affinity for getting things in person, the vendors that we like to work with, that they can have direct conversations with management, engineering, whoever is needed, etc. The relationship and the knowledge that good service will not result in price shopping allow that to happen.
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At which point did I say that service wasn't important? I don't buy on price alone, but neither do I buy on service alone. As I said above, the two aren't mutually exclusive - but you seem to be implying that they are.
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@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
OK, so if you don't get advice of a VAR, what do you get from them? Where is the "Value Added" bit?
Advice and confirmation that the parts you asked for all all correct for the need is the point of a VAR.
If oyu are not doing that, then you are just wasting everyone's time and money. Just guy buy your shit from random Ebay seller 42.
Advice? I Thought Scott's being saying for years that the advice should come from paid professionals? Now if you're talking about advice within say the RAID controllers themselves on a specific server chassis, well maybe, but even then, other than compatibility within the parts list, I don't expect to much if any advice.
No, you missed the point here. When you send a VAR a list of hardware, the need for advice on what you need for project X is already over.
You are getting advice that the parts you are asking for are all correct and that you did not make a mistake by buying the wrong HP iLO license.
Thew VAR should know this information because you have always worked with them as a partner. So they should know when you send in the RFQ with the wrong shit that it will be a phone call back to you to confirm instead of just dumping out a quote.
This is why you had the wrong thing like 2-3 times. You treat the VAR as a reseller and only ever tell them what to order. So the VAR never bothers to care about your stuff and did not check that you ordered the wrong thing.
Two huge problems with this.
- did you see this
other than compatibility within the parts list,
So I covered the call back portion of your argument already.
- in the stated case bout the iLo - I actually put in a RFQ as it were providing my server model and serial number for the first request. Only after that purchase was wrong did I do my own additional research, which also wound up being wrong, finally reaching out to HP directly and after 2+ hours on the phone with them... finding the right part number.
So I did the right thing in the first place - I treated them like a VAR - gave them the scope and they unfortunately came back with the wrong stuff - fine that happens, and it's the first time with this VAR, so I'm not that upset and I will continue to use them..
But have you traditionally used this VAR as a VAR and not a reseller? From your prior posts, I insinuated that you have not.
Let me see - what have I bought from them?
around 30 Laptops in one big purchase 2 years ago (start of relationship)
approx 6 desktops since then
iLo license
and a smallish item every other month or so since then.My additional purchases from others have been, blank DVDs, USB memory sticks and replacement batteries from an ebay seller.
So frankly I'm not sure how to answer your question. I suppose perhaps I treated them as a VAR when I bought the laptops, but beyond that, there really hasn't been a huge need - When I ordered the desktops - it was less a quoting situation and more a ordering one, because I knew what I wanted. The one part they needed to confirm was that that monitors supported DisplayPort natively, so they found suitable monitors.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
At which point did I say that service wasn't important? I don't buy on price alone, but neither do I buy on service alone. As I said above, the two aren't mutually exclusive - but you seem to be implying that they are.
I'm saying that shopping around and good service are exclusive. Not that price and service are not. How are you shopping around if not based on price?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
OK, so if you don't get advice of a VAR, what do you get from them? Where is the "Value Added" bit?
Advice and confirmation that the parts you asked for all all correct for the need is the point of a VAR.
If oyu are not doing that, then you are just wasting everyone's time and money. Just guy buy your shit from random Ebay seller 42.
Advice? I Thought Scott's being saying for years that the advice should come from paid professionals? Now if you're talking about advice within say the RAID controllers themselves on a specific server chassis, well maybe, but even then, other than compatibility within the parts list, I don't expect to much if any advice.
No, you missed the point here. When you send a VAR a list of hardware, the need for advice on what you need for project X is already over.
You are getting advice that the parts you are asking for are all correct and that you did not make a mistake by buying the wrong HP iLO license.
Thew VAR should know this information because you have always worked with them as a partner. So they should know when you send in the RFQ with the wrong shit that it will be a phone call back to you to confirm instead of just dumping out a quote.
This is why you had the wrong thing like 2-3 times. You treat the VAR as a reseller and only ever tell them what to order. So the VAR never bothers to care about your stuff and did not check that you ordered the wrong thing.
Two huge problems with this.
- did you see this
other than compatibility within the parts list,
So I covered the call back portion of your argument already.
- in the stated case bout the iLo - I actually put in a RFQ as it were providing my server model and serial number for the first request. Only after that purchase was wrong did I do my own additional research, which also wound up being wrong, finally reaching out to HP directly and after 2+ hours on the phone with them... finding the right part number.
So I did the right thing in the first place - I treated them like a VAR - gave them the scope and they unfortunately came back with the wrong stuff - fine that happens, and it's the first time with this VAR, so I'm not that upset and I will continue to use them..
That's why I mentioned "within reason" in one of the earlier posts. Everyone makes mistakes, that's going to happen. VARs have a tough job, as does all of IT, in that they are constantly facing new products and changes and expect to know everything and if they don't see a certain request often, they might not be that experienced with it. Or they can just make a mistake. How they handle the mistake is, to me, far more important than that they made it.
Yep, in this case, the VAR did manage to RMA one of the incorrect purchase, I'm still waiting to hear about the second one. Because because of the nature of these licenses, I'm guessing the VAR will end up just eating it. If they can't refund the second one, I will not fight it and I will eat it, not happily, but not upset either.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
At which point did I say that service wasn't important? I don't buy on price alone, but neither do I buy on service alone. As I said above, the two aren't mutually exclusive - but you seem to be implying that they are.
Shopping around, the only thing the vendors can compare is the price - they can't realistically compare their services.. so in their mind.. the only thing you appear to care about is price. This point I do understand where Scott and others are coming from.
I don't shop around for the sake of shopping around. I was with CDW for over 6 years. I left them mainly because they moved my sales person to another team and gave me a new one.. I was already not super happy with their pricing, but I stayed for my sales guy. Once he was gone.. so was I.
As you can see from my previous post, I don't buy a lot. So I know my business isn't worth much effort to any VAR.
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
At which point did I say that service wasn't important? I don't buy on price alone, but neither do I buy on service alone. As I said above, the two aren't mutually exclusive - but you seem to be implying that they are.
Shopping around, the only thing the vendors can compare is the price - they can't realistically compare their services.. so in their mind.. the only thing you appear to care about is price. This point I do understand where Scott and others are coming from.
I don't shop around for the sake of shopping around. I was with CDW for over 6 years. I left them mainly because they moved my sales person to another team and gave me a new one.. I was already not super happy with their pricing, but I stayed for my sales guy. Once he was gone.. so was I.
As you can see from my previous post, I don't buy a lot. So I know my business isn't worth much effort to any VAR.
Your VAR should care. They should know that you are a decent sized small business with multiple locations and will have an always ongoing need for new desktop computers. Even if you jumped to the VAR mid cycle, they should have learned about you and know that in 3-5 years you will be buying new hardware again.
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@scottalanmiller said:
I'm saying that shopping around and good service are exclusive. Not that price and service are not. How are you shopping around if not based on price?
I have 3 vendors on our preferred vendor list. They know they don't have my business exclusively, and they know who each other are. They will compete with each other, but on service and price.
Let's say I ask for Server A at $10k. One of them might discover that Server B is better, so he'll let me know, knowing that he may be the only VAR that has figured this out and will therefore win the deal. But if I always bought for this VAR, he might think "I'll sell him Server A because there's a bigger margin in it for me, and because I can't be bothered to search for Server B because I know I'm getting $10k regardless". That's complacency.
They also know that if they screw up, they'll be off the preferred vendor list, knowing that I have two other carefully selected vendors that can I can buy from instead.
I don't really have anything else to say. If you've never seen this happen then fair enough. I have.
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@JaredBusch said:
Your VAR should care. They should know that you are a decent sized small business with multiple locations and will have an always ongoing need for new desktop computers. Even if you jumped to the VAR mid cycle, they should have learned about you and know that in 3-5 years you will be buying new hardware again.
Can I have your hardware refresh cycle?
I tried to get us on a 5 years auto refresh cycle but was told no. So, like my WiFi project that everyone here in ML Land told me.. we don't replace PC's/laptops until they fail. The last batch were replaced not because they failed, but because MS was retiring XP. The combined with them being 7+ years old meant that replacing them was cost effective versus buying RAM and OS upgrades with an unknown amount of life remaining in the laptops.
I am in the process now of rolling out Windows 10 as part of the free upgrade. That means we won't likely see a need to replace hardware due to an OS EOL, instead the hardware will be replaced when it fails. I'm expecting 8+ years on average.
There of course will be those that die sooner (already have been) and those that last longer, or the need to provide more performance for an app, etc. -
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I'm saying that shopping around and good service are exclusive. Not that price and service are not. How are you shopping around if not based on price?
I have 3 vendors on our preferred vendor list. They know they don't have my business exclusively, and they know who each other are. They will compete with each other, but on service and price.
Let's say I ask for Server A at $10k. One of them might discover that Server B is better, so he'll let me know, knowing that he may be the only VAR that has figured this out and will therefore win the deal. But if I always bought for this VAR, he might think "I'll sell him Server A because there's a bigger margin in it for me, and because I can't be bothered to search for Server B because I know I'm getting $10k regardless". That's complacency.
They also know that if they screw up, they'll be off the preferred vendor list, knowing that I have two other carefully selected vendors that can I can buy from instead.
I don't really have anything else to say. If you've never seen this happen then fair enough. I have.
Your Server A vs Server B seems like an odd solution - Those are base decisions that you should have already decided outside of the VAR. You should know if Server B will even work for you, and if it will, is it what you need better than server A.
The option for a VAR to pitch you a whole different server is a fallacy in Scott's mind because you're not paying them to pitch servers to you, only to verify that parts within the server you asked for work or not. I suppose you could argue that they could suggest a better/different RAID card, but a whole server.. probably not.
Scott?
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
Your VAR should care. They should know that you are a decent sized small business with multiple locations and will have an always ongoing need for new desktop computers. Even if you jumped to the VAR mid cycle, they should have learned about you and know that in 3-5 years you will be buying new hardware again.
Can I have your hardware refresh cycle?
I tried to get us on a 5 years auto refresh cycle but was told no. So, like my WiFi project that everyone here in ML Land told me.. we don't replace PC's/laptops until they fail. The last batch were replaced not because they failed, but because MS was retiring XP. The combined with them being 7+ years old meant that replacing them was cost effective versus buying RAM and OS upgrades with an unknown amount of life remaining in the laptops.
I am in the process now of rolling out Windows 10 as part of the free upgrade. That means we won't likely see a need to replace hardware due to an OS EOL, instead the hardware will be replaced when it fails. I'm expecting 8+ years on average.
There of course will be those that die sooner (already have been) and those that last longer, or the need to provide more performance for an app, etc.I think I clearly stated assuming you switched mid cycle. So I was assuming you were already 3+ years in on the hardware with another 3-5+ to go.. My clients are mostly like you and will ride the hardware until it dies because their applications do not need big hardware. Like you the Windows 10 roll out will extend the hardware life cycle from OS obsolescence to hardware failure.
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@Dashrender said:
Your Server A vs Server B seems like an odd solution - Those are base decisions that you should have already decided outside of the VAR. You should know if Server B will even work for you, and if it will, is it what you need better than server A.
Well, for example, one thing I find frustrating is that HP offer loads of different bundles. So I want chassis A and 8 disks, I could buy them separately, or get a bundle that includes the disks. You could spend hours going through all the different bundles and that's something I expect a good VAR to do for me.
And as you say, suggesting an alternative RAID card is another great example.
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
At which point did I say that service wasn't important? I don't buy on price alone, but neither do I buy on service alone. As I said above, the two aren't mutually exclusive - but you seem to be implying that they are.
Shopping around, the only thing the vendors can compare is the price - they can't realistically compare their services.. so in their mind.. the only thing you appear to care about is price. This point I do understand where Scott and others are coming from.
I don't shop around for the sake of shopping around. I was with CDW for over 6 years. I left them mainly because they moved my sales person to another team and gave me a new one.. I was already not super happy with their pricing, but I stayed for my sales guy. Once he was gone.. so was I.
As you can see from my previous post, I don't buy a lot. So I know my business isn't worth much effort to any VAR.
And this is when you shop around again... when there is a trigger to do so. Six years, service wasn't good enough, you were shopping not for a sale, but for a new relationship. Shopping is okay when the purpose is to establish a new relationship.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I'm saying that shopping around and good service are exclusive. Not that price and service are not. How are you shopping around if not based on price?
I have 3 vendors on our preferred vendor list. They know they don't have my business exclusively, and they know who each other are. They will compete with each other, but on service and price.
Let's say I ask for Server A at $10k. One of them might discover that Server B is better, so he'll let me know, knowing that he may be the only VAR that has figured this out and will therefore win the deal. But if I always bought for this VAR, he might think "I'll sell him Server A because there's a bigger margin in it for me, and because I can't be bothered to search for Server B because I know I'm getting $10k regardless". That's complacency.
They also know that if they screw up, they'll be off the preferred vendor list, knowing that I have two other carefully selected vendors that can I can buy from instead.
I don't really have anything else to say. If you've never seen this happen then fair enough. I have.
That mostly makes sense, I understand where you are coming from. One of the problems, though, with this situation is that you have your VARs not competing for what they will do, but competing based on their macro recommendations and advice. If I am reading this correctly. This is getting them to compete based on what they can convince you to buy, which is still mainly price.
What is Server A is better for you but Server B looks better on paper. What if the lower cost item has the higher margins? What if Vendor A was trying to protect you from a bad purchase and Vendor B thought that they could win your business by selling you something that wasn't as good but had a lower price?
I see this a lot with people buying Dell C class gear, it's not meant for the SMB market and is not built for that environment, but the specs are good on paper and the price is low. Easy to sell, but not good for the customer (but often they don't realize it for years, if ever.)
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Dashrender said:
Your Server A vs Server B seems like an odd solution - Those are base decisions that you should have already decided outside of the VAR. You should know if Server B will even work for you, and if it will, is it what you need better than server A.
Well, for example, one thing I find frustrating is that HP offer loads of different bundles. So I want chassis A and 8 disks, I could buy them separately, or get a bundle that includes the disks. You could spend hours going through all the different bundles and that's something I expect a good VAR to do for me.
And as you say, suggesting an alternative RAID card is another great example.
Bundle A vs. Bundle B... now that makes sense. Taking advantage of HPE's Super Savers or whatever they are called. That's where a VAR is valuable. But substituting products is risky.
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@scottalanmiller said:
I'm saying that shopping around and good service are exclusive. Not that price and service are not. How are you shopping around if not based on price?
I have 3 vendors on our preferred vendor list. They know they don't have my business exclusively, and they know who each other are. They will compete with each other, but on service and price.
Let's say I ask for Server A at $10k. One of them might discover that Server B is better, so he'll let me know, knowing that he may be the only VAR that has figured this out and will therefore win the deal. But if I always bought for this VAR, he might think "I'll sell him Server A because there's a bigger margin in it for me, and because I can't be bothered to search for Server B because I know I'm getting $10k regardless". That's complacency.
They also know that if they screw up, they'll be off the preferred vendor list, knowing that I have two other carefully selected vendors that can I can buy from instead.
I don't really have anything else to say. If you've never seen this happen then fair enough. I have.
Your Server A vs Server B seems like an odd solution - Those are base decisions that you should have already decided outside of the VAR. You should know if Server B will even work for you, and if it will, is it what you need better than server A.
The option for a VAR to pitch you a whole different server is a fallacy in Scott's mind because you're not paying them to pitch servers to you, only to verify that parts within the server you asked for work or not. I suppose you could argue that they could suggest a better/different RAID card, but a whole server.. probably not.
Scott?
That's mostly how I see it. Having that done to an ITSP is better because of the emotional gap (cost savings doesn't cause an emotional reaction in a third party like it does in a primary party which is important in handling a sales proposal) but still risky to some degree, it's often an attempt to trick the ITSP or the customer.
Little changes are generally good to discuss with the VAR. Which drives, which card, which chassis options, which ILO license (sorry, had to add that) because these are the things that the VAR knows how to configure (we hope) and does all of the time. But knowing which servers are going to work for you or not is rarely something that they will know.
That being said, a good VAR can help with things like "Should this be a DL380 G9p or G9e?" Or "Do I need the 2U system for the storage I want or will 1U do?" But that is pushing it, as there might be factors not being considered and you generally need someone with a broader scope overseeing that before something gets missed (you were planning to add a PCIe card that won't fit in the 1U.)
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@scottalanmiller said:
That being said, a good VAR can help with things like "Should this be a DL380 G9p or G9e?"
"A good VAR". That's the key - finding a good VAR. My impression of VARs is that they work for HP, not for me. Their sole objective is to make money for HP, not to save money for me. So one of my main criteria for a "good VAR" is that when I order something, the right product turns up at my door at the right time. I don't have many expectations above that. Many of them can't even manage that task consistently.
By the way, do I have to refer to "HPE" now - is that the acceptable company name, or is "HP" still ok?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
By the way, do I have to refer to "HPE" now - is that the acceptable company name, or is "HP" still ok?
Well, people get it but technically they are two different companies. HP is the desktop and printer company. HPE is the server and storage company.
When you say HP Server, we know what you mean. When you say HP VAR, we don't. So sometimes context clarifies, sometimes it doesn't since everyone needs to work with both.
