Chopping off their own feet....
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@RAM. said:
@IRJ said:
@RAM. said:
@IRJ said:
@Bill-Kindle said:
@IRJ said:
There are a few Spicy Peppers that avoid me now because of my participation on here. Anyone else on Mangolassi experience this?
Really?
Yeah, definitely. I dont get messages from them anymore and/or they no longer joke with me.
I thought you disappeared :-P, I was eventually going to PM you but... I started cutting my spiceworks usage back as well.... I'm no longer in the top participants per day, week, or month anymore.
I started to cut back my posting even before Mangolassi. The whole power struggle in SP soured me on the site.
Oh god I know dude don't worry. There was a post @Nic interim in the administration and moderation group that honestly just screwed everything up. @Bill-Kindle stepped down due to it, and I followed shortly after. He asked me to help GA a group and well... I started too but... we were overrode by those "above" us... but yet they were equals. He stepped down, I stayed on for a month or two, and after this recent spat I decided I'm not going to help for free, cut me out. There are hidden people who fight in the admin group that no-one knows about. There are hidden insults in the admin group that no-one knows about. Its a real ego struggle that started kicking me back.
I don't talk about moderation issues (other than the new auto moderation feature) anymore in public.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Here is my question. Why does everything have to be sponsored? Its ok to get sponsors to help out on big events where major resources are required. Here is the thing that bothers me, Why are we having simple 30 minute webinars that are sponsored by someone. Really, how much do these webinars cost to run? $200 or less. That is pennies to the big behometh that website has become. It just makes you question the quality of the material. Are they going to cater the webinars to fall in line with a vendors product in the future?
Because of their staff size, it actually costs a fortune to do anything. It takes a lot of man hours to put on even a trivial event. Add to that that they are a business and all they sell is advertising, of course everything has to be sponsors. Why would they do something for free?
I have lots of complaints but that is not one. That's just business.
Now quality control, that is its own issue.
I disagree, Scott. I dont pretend to know more about business than you, but here is my take on it.
The whole feel of SW is changing from community driven to vendor driven. The webinars should be a way to attract new members to the community. Its a small price to pay compared to other means of advertising. I can tell you from the employee side of the coin, I am very skeptical when I see sponsored webinars. We get badgered by sales people on a daily basis and dont have anywhere near the budget to get involved in every new product we see. I am not 100% sure on this, but I would think MSPs are seen as more valuable to vendors and sales people since you can push their product to others.
Is anyone else skeptical when you see sponsored webinars.
I never see any webinars so.... Lol.
MSPs are seen as competition to the vendors. That's the issue going on now. They love vendors as partners but hate them in the community since they compete for customers.
I never quite fully understood why the vendors / msp's can't be partners. You would think vendors would sell the product, then point to MSP's in a user's vicinity (if one existed close) for further support, if that makes any sense.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
I never quite fully understood why the vendors / msp's can't be partners. You would think vendors would sell the product, then point to MSP's in a user's vicinity (if one existed close) for further support, if that makes any sense.
Why, if they sell the support agreement themselves they get to keep all the funds.
Frankly I've never understood how a company that provides end user support isn't direct competition to resellers of the product. These concepts seem in conflict to me.
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@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
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@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
I understand your not. I'm just saying that I try really hard to not bring it up any more as I've gotten into some heated disagreements that felt like they turned into "well you can just leave then", which I was shocked by being told that. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
I understand your not. I'm just saying that I try really hard to not bring it up any more as I've gotten into some heated disagreements that felt like they turned into "well you can just leave then", which I was shocked by being told that. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
You know, I've always loved that sentence "well you can just leave", its such a straight forward sentence with absolutely no truth behind it, you don't just "leave" out of nowhere, you will have some form of hesitation and you will have some form of resistance.
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@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
I understand your not. I'm just saying that I try really hard to not bring it up any more as I've gotten into some heated disagreements that felt like they turned into "well you can just leave then", which I was shocked by being told that. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
You know, I've always loved that sentence "well you can just leave", its such a straight forward sentence with absolutely no truth behind it, you don't just "leave" out of nowhere, you will have some form of hesitation and you will have some form of resistance.
It's easy to say that instead of having a dialogue. It's the white flag in a discussion of giving up. People that SHOULD be booted never get booted but people who have what I view as legitimate concerns get told this if they complain loud and often enough.
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@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
True, but in the grand scheme of things its a very small price to pay for advertising.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Here is my question. Why does everything have to be sponsored? Its ok to get sponsors to help out on big events where major resources are required. Here is the thing that bothers me, Why are we having simple 30 minute webinars that are sponsored by someone. Really, how much do these webinars cost to run? $200 or less. That is pennies to the big behometh that website has become. It just makes you question the quality of the material. Are they going to cater the webinars to fall in line with a vendors product in the future?
Because of their staff size, it actually costs a fortune to do anything. It takes a lot of man hours to put on even a trivial event. Add to that that they are a business and all they sell is advertising, of course everything has to be sponsors. Why would they do something for free?
I have lots of complaints but that is not one. That's just business.
Now quality control, that is its own issue.
I disagree, Scott. I dont pretend to know more about business than you, but here is my take on it.
The whole feel of SW is changing from community driven to vendor driven. The webinars should be a way to attract new members to the community. Its a small price to pay compared to other means of advertising. I can tell you from the employee side of the coin, I am very skeptical when I see sponsored webinars. We get badgered by sales people on a daily basis and dont have anywhere near the budget to get involved in every new product we see. I am not 100% sure on this, but I would think MSPs are seen as more valuable to vendors and sales people since you can push their product to others.
Is anyone else skeptical when you see sponsored webinars.
I never see any webinars so.... Lol.
MSPs are seen as competition to the vendors. That's the issue going on now. They love vendors as partners but hate them in the community since they compete for customers.
I never quite fully understood why the vendors / msp's can't be partners. You would think vendors would sell the product, then point to MSP's in a user's vicinity (if one existed close) for further support, if that makes any sense.
With the ease and speed of remote support these days, why would they need an MSP to support their product? It would be cheaper and easy for them to have a centralized help desk to support it. On the rare occasion, that a tech needs to go on site, they reach out to an MSP/Partner.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
Here is my question. Why does everything have to be sponsored? Its ok to get sponsors to help out on big events where major resources are required. Here is the thing that bothers me, Why are we having simple 30 minute webinars that are sponsored by someone. Really, how much do these webinars cost to run? $200 or less. That is pennies to the big behometh that website has become. It just makes you question the quality of the material. Are they going to cater the webinars to fall in line with a vendors product in the future?
Because of their staff size, it actually costs a fortune to do anything. It takes a lot of man hours to put on even a trivial event. Add to that that they are a business and all they sell is advertising, of course everything has to be sponsors. Why would they do something for free?
I have lots of complaints but that is not one. That's just business.
Now quality control, that is its own issue.
I disagree, Scott. I dont pretend to know more about business than you, but here is my take on it.
The whole feel of SW is changing from community driven to vendor driven. The webinars should be a way to attract new members to the community. Its a small price to pay compared to other means of advertising. I can tell you from the employee side of the coin, I am very skeptical when I see sponsored webinars. We get badgered by sales people on a daily basis and dont have anywhere near the budget to get involved in every new product we see. I am not 100% sure on this, but I would think MSPs are seen as more valuable to vendors and sales people since you can push their product to others.
Is anyone else skeptical when you see sponsored webinars.
I never see any webinars so.... Lol.
MSPs are seen as competition to the vendors. That's the issue going on now. They love vendors as partners but hate them in the community since they compete for customers.
I never quite fully understood why the vendors / msp's can't be partners. You would think vendors would sell the product, then point to MSP's in a user's vicinity (if one existed close) for further support, if that makes any sense.
They can be. But they can't all be. And defining what is a vendor and what isn't is not possible. For example, as an Elastix support company, every phone vendor saw NTG as competition. But even if we sold Avaya, Cisco would not like it or whatever.
They want to services except their own discussed.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
I understand your not. I'm just saying that I try really hard to not bring it up any more as I've gotten into some heated disagreements that felt like they turned into "well you can just leave then", which I was shocked by being told that. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
Yes. The feeling is weird. It's "like it or leave it" and then if you leave you are treated as a traitor. The cult feeling is strong.
@Bill-Kindle said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
I understand your not. I'm just saying that I try really hard to not bring it up any more as I've gotten into some heated disagreements that felt like they turned into "well you can just leave then", which I was shocked by being told that. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
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@IRJ said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
True, but in the grand scheme of things its a very small price to pay for advertising.
Sure IF you are charging for advertising which was the crux of the issue.
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@scottalanmiller
I'm not even sure it's cult, some just seems like pent up rage and jealousy that's festered for a long long time just now coming to a head.. -
@Bill-Kindle no question that there is some pent up resentment going on all over the place. Small MSPs want the big ones removed. Vendors want them all removed. IT pros want the MSPs to stay and the vendors to leave.
The problem is that they need too much revenue to support the ecosystem and trying to get everyone to pay isn't going to work. The whole point is that the product is free. So people who don't want to pay is the common denominator.
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@Bill-Kindle said:
@scottalanmiller
I'm not even sure it's cult, some just seems like pent up rage and jealousy that's festered for a long long time just now coming to a head..@scottalanmiller makes me jealous but I won't hold that against him
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The scale is a major issue. ML has a part time staff of two mods and one guy ( me) handling some tech stuff once in a while. That's it. They have hundreds of full time people and big offices and huge datacenter needs. That's a lot if mouths to feed based on the same product (a free community.)
You can see the panic. Web advertising from a single site is a scary thing to depend on. If traffic decreases and anyone finds out, the vendors flee and the contraction rate will be scary.
That's why a lot if the issues exist. Encouraging traffic, making vendors happy... That's all that there is.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@IRJ said:
@RAM. said:
@Bill-Kindle I'm not trying to high light any major issues, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible as there are some people who legitimately try and some of which I consider friends.
@IRJ One thing I disagree with you on is the fact you're going to require a staff dedicated to that purpose, or take them away from their regularly scheduled duties, and you'd have to decide whose job is the most worthless you can take them off of it to set up a webinar.
True, but in the grand scheme of things its a very small price to pay for advertising.
Sure IF you are charging for advertising which was the crux of the issue.
I meant they should see it as advertising SW, not necessarily the vendor itself. I just believe the for the amount of cost, it takes to do this they will make more in the long run by attracting new members of the community. You said they have good numbers, but they dont have a strong percentage of experts. Aren't the webinars what brings the experts into the community? I mean if you are new to SW, and you see all these people asking dumb questions, isnt it going to turn you off? What value do you as an expert get out of SW?
I can find free webinars given by vendors all day long. Generally those webinars have another motive of selling you a product so I am weary of attending them. Why cant SW offer vendor free webinars to help attract the experts to the forum? After all that is what they lack, neutral experts.
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@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
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@IRJ think about how advertising SW would work. Lots of money to get ten people who found the webinar through SW to find.... SW?
They'd get no benefit from that. It would be all people who are already customers.
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@RAM. said:
@scottalanmiller I don't think the small scale of ML is going to be an issue for a while. The reality is that everyone who is here, is here for a reason, we have some form of disagreeance with the other site. We are either dedicated, or ignorant to a bigger picture, and the way I see it. Everyone who is here now, is dedicated.
It won't be. We designed the architecture to scale past the scale that SW sees without needing any additional resources from a human standpoint. Because we don't tollgate vendors and MSPs a lot of the overhead goes away.
