How to Balance Standards - Work and Personal
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
I agree that one would only ever expect to be sold something that is sold in the store they are standing (or their online counterpart). So guidance would only be toward this limited selection.
That alone changes the behaviour dramatically. People in IT routinely go to SAN vendors or SAN resellers and are surprised to find out that they were sold a SAN when it didn't apply to them. Are they really surprised? Or is that just a vocal reaction that they feel makes it socially acceptable to have not done their due diligence?
Socially acceptable failure has become a big thing. It's related, I think, to the idea of glorification of ignorance. There are whole categories of things that people do and know aren't good ideas but that it is social acceptable to simply claim ignorance and everyone appears to have agreed to ignore failings when they are centered around certain areas or behaviours.
They do? Those IT people are going to EMC, etc directly and saying "hey I need a storage solution"? I find that highly unlikely. It seems far more likely that they are going to Dell or CDW and those companies, both who claim they have teams dedicated to find the best solution for your situation (of course within the product lines that they sell). But do they? No, not generally. CDW was trying to sell me a SAN all the time. Clearly they have MANY solutions that would be significantly better for me, even it if was a single server with a ton of local disk.
I haven't decided yet if those vendors (Dell and CDW specifically) are breaking their social contract with us by promoting us to more than we need, and potentially much more dangerous solutions.
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@Dashrender said:
They do? Those IT people are going to EMC, etc directly and saying "hey I need a storage solution"? I find that highly unlikely. It seems far more likely that they are going to Dell or CDW and those companies, both who claim they have teams dedicated to find the best solution for your situation (of course within the product lines that they sell). But do they? No, not generally. CDW was trying to sell me a SAN all the time. Clearly they have MANY solutions that would be significantly better for me, even it if was a single server with a ton of local disk.
Well Dell, CDW, etc. are primarily SAN shops, that's their big money. Yes, they sell other things, but their big money is in storage. So in some ways, yes, people are going to primarily storage vendors. In some ways, you are correct, and this highlights how margins drive advice and even when you think that someone is giving good advice or broad advice, you need to avoid this situations because only in a case where you know enough to avoid needing advice, you know enough to not need the advice and anytime you need the advice, you almost certainly can't tell when the advice is poor or even reckless.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
And if the sales people are really that untrained, how could I ever expect them to provide any assistance on choosing between two models? you already said they aren't trained or experienced enough to do so... yet we all know that these non trained, inexperienced people do provide this advice every single day in placed like Best Buy, Staples, etc.
Yes, they provide horrible guidance most days. But generally people just need "something" and never actually double check the advice. Obviously the average person at Staples or Best Buy has literally no capability to give this advice at all. Requesting technical guidance from a person who is a salesperson is fine, if you have reason to believe that you have already limited your selection to a range in which that person has scope AND if you have reason to believe that person has the specific knowledge that you seek. This almost never applies to Best Buy or Staples. The people who generally work there, including AJ's boss, have likely zero idea about the products, differences, values, quality, needs of the customer, how to elicit that information, incentive to learn, obligation to learn, etc.
Honestly, asking any advice in a store like that is truly a bad idea. Sure, you might get AJ, but unless you know the person you are getting to give advice, you are doing something very foolish.
I've seen people at Best Buy ask questions and get told things that are obviously wrong (does this have optical input? And the guy says no even though you can see the input right there physically in front of you.)
A really common case in the audio world is basically every Best Buy level guy will tell you to use TOSLINK fiber for audio because it sounds better. Yet there is no science or logic to this, it's a myth of people who don't know how digital communications works. Yet anyone who knows the science behind it or just applies general logic about very basic digital communications, and serious audiophiles, know that copper digital is better because it has fewer jitter issues because of the signally that is additionally available there (logic would tell you that they are likely the same as fiber has no advantage, science would fill in that the copper actually has the one little advantage.)
Go to any store of this nature, ask about fiber vs. copper. Universally they will get it wrong, yet anyone interested in audio knows that this is one of those "everyone not interested gets this wrong" things.
Huh - didn't know that, but then again, I'm not an audio guy.
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@Dashrender said:
Huh - didn't know that, but then again, I'm not an audio guy.
Wouldn't expect non-audio people to know it as it is specific to the TOSLINK implementation. Basically it is the same as in IT, though. Just as its a silly myth that fiber Ethernet is superior to copper Ethernet. Unless you are protecting against interference or running really long distances, fiber is just more costly with no upsides. Fiber Ethernet does not have the jitter issues of TOSLINK so fiber to copper Ethernet are just equal rather than copper being better (other than price.)
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@scottalanmiller said:
In some ways, you are correct, and this highlights how margins drive advice and even when you think that someone is giving good advice or broad advice, you need to avoid this situations because only in a case where you know enough to avoid needing advice, you know enough to not need the advice and anytime you need the advice, you almost certainly can't tell when the advice is poor or even reckless.
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
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@Dashrender said:
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
Most important thing is avoid salespeople until you have the advice that you need!
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It really depends on the area that you are in. Are you talking about cars, computers, IT systems design, stereo equipment, etc.?
If you are talking about cars and have zero knowledge of them, a good place to start is with a neutral, non-sales expert or near-expert like a third party garage. Find your neighbourhood garage that you would use and talk to them. Make sure they handle more or less all cars and aren't like a Honda aftermarket performance shop but a normal shop full of people whose expertise is car maintenance. They might not be the absolute best resource, but they are domain related experts, see a vast number of cars intimately and are not paid to promote a specific product. They might give good advice quickly in return for the hope that you will bring your cars there over time.
There aren't really car consultants, but a shop like this might be able to help you find someone to act as one. Most people know lots of people who know a lot about cars so it is often easy to solicit feedback.
There are tons of publications that review cars too, and many websites. And things like JD Power and Assoc. that collect reliability studies.
Cars are actually one of the harder ones to learn about if you didn't grow up learning about them, which most people do.
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For anything IT or computer related, you have loads and loads of online resources, of course, and communities like SW and ML that are great starting points. For home users looking for this advice, I would think that it is best to find IT experts as they are relatively everywhere, and buy them some coffee or lunch in exchange for some quick advice if you need something personalized. Don't necessarily need to formally hire someone long term or anything. But you need to make sure they are not representing a vendor or being paid to sell you something.
For IT it is like any business function (e.g. human resources, finance, legal, facilities, etc.) you do one of two things: build an internal department of expertise and/or hire a consulting/outsourcing firm that provides this expertise. Every business needs these functions. Some limp along reading books and trying to develop the knowledge in house for cheap. Most small firms hire accounting shops to do their taxes, bookkeeping shops to do the books day to day, a law firm to check contracts, an IT firm to design and maintain the corporate infrastructure. As companies grow, often one by one they hire experts to bring these functions or some portion of them in house, but that's mostly semantics. Whether they are internal or external experts, someone has to be a paid expert in the guidance in the area specified to have good, solid advice.
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Heck even posting on Facebook and allowing random everyone post their opinion on what you should get is better than 90% of the sales people out there.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
So what is one to do when you KNOW you need advice?
Most important thing is avoid salespeople until you have the advice that you need!
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
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@Minion-Queen said:
Heck even posting on Facebook and allowing random everyone post their opinion on what you should get is better than 90% of the sales people out there.
I definitely agree with this!
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@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that.
Woah there Dash! Which bit is AJ wrong about and which bit is he right about? If my boss told me I would, henceforth, have to call all customers Bob, rather than their actual name, then that is exactly what I would do, because he's my boss and I follow his orders. But I would still think that he is wrong and is an idiot/insane. And ultimately I would get tired of calling everyone Bob, and putting up with customers telling me they're not called Bob, and I would leave and get another job.
Now as far as I can tell, AJ hasn't been given any direct orders which he has disobeyed. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything that his contract or training contradicts. His boss hasn't ordered him to sell laptop X or laptop Y, he's simply bitched that he doesn't like AJ's decisions. And AJ has bitched that he's wrong, and as with my Bob-fixated boss, it appears to have resulted in him finding another job and hopefully going to work for someone who isn't an idiot.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@Dashrender said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
Just because AJ's tech supervisor doesn't like it, doesn't mean AJ is wrong. His supervisor could just be an idiot for all we know.
While I agreed with most of the first part of what you said, this quoted part I completely disagree with you on. AJ in this case is wrong - as long as what AJ's boss is asking him to do is legal, AJ should be doing exactly that.
Woah there Dash! Which bit is AJ wrong about and which bit is he right about? If my boss told me I would, henceforth, have to call all customers Bob, rather than their actual name, then that is exactly what I would do, because he's my boss and I follow his orders. But I would still think that he is wrong and is an idiot/insane. And ultimately I would get tired of calling everyone Bob, and putting up with customers telling me they're not called Bob, and I would leave and get another job.
Now as far as I can tell, AJ hasn't been given any direct orders which he has disobeyed. And as far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything that his contract or training contradicts. His boss hasn't ordered him to sell laptop X or laptop Y, he's simply bitched that he doesn't like AJ's decisions. And AJ has bitched that he's wrong, and as with my Bob-fixated boss, it appears to have resulted in him finding another job and hopefully going to work for someone who isn't an idiot.
You're right, AJ hasn't told us if his boss has told him to do something and that he (AJ) is refusing to do said thing. He'd be wrong if he wasn't doing what his boss told him to do, (in your example call everyone Bob). While it's possible that AJ and his new boss just don't get along for whatever reason - AJ definitely has rubbed people wrong in this group - and that may be the only reason that this boss is complaining, because he's the boss and he can.
So back to your question, what part was wrong - the only part that is wrong is if AJ isn't do what his boss told him to do, but for now we don't know if that's true or not. But it doesn't matter if his boss is an idiot or not, he still has to do what the boss says until he no longer works there, or the situation changes.
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Yes!! THIS!! Even if your boss is wrong unless you are willing to take the chance to go over his head. You do what your boss says period end of story.
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@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
As much as it is hard to describe, I'm confident that people know how to identify a salesperson. We see them every day and identify them every day. When you are dealing with a store selling something, the people you deal with are salespeople. Even if you are paying them, someone who is a salesperson remains a salesperson.
As much as there could be secret salespeople on there, it's not very realistic. People know when they are talking to a store. It's not really something that catches them by surprise.
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@scottalanmiller said:
When you set foot into a Chevy dealer, everyone knows that the guy who works there is going to attempt to sell you a Chevy, not to determine if a Ford, or a boat, is a better choice for your needs. There is never an obligation for the Chevy salesman to be a transportation consultant, and it would be incredibly silly for someone to expect such.
That's not the same as Staples (or at least, Staples in the UK), since Staples isn't tied to a specific manufacturer. It is more like going to an Apple store and asking for advice on which type of tablet to buy - you are going to be advised to buy an iPad. And it's not a good example in AJ's case, since his boss's complaint is that he is only selling one model of laptop. AJ is the equivalent of the Chevy salesmen in that he will only sell you a specific HP laptop.
Now if I knew I wanted a Chevy, but wasn't sure which model, then I might take some advice from the Chevy salesmen.
Anyway, as far as I can tell in the UK, Staples are like most UK electronics retailers in that they make pretty much zero margin on hardware sales and only make anything on selling financing and extended warranties. They're effectively finance companies rather than hardware resellers. So if I'm not buying on credit and I don't want a warranty then I doubt the salesman really gives a crap what I buy, so he may given me his honest opinion.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
As much as it is hard to describe, I'm confident that people know how to identify a salesperson. We see them every day and identify them every day. When you are dealing with a store selling something, the people you deal with are salespeople. Even if you are paying them, someone who is a salesperson remains a salesperson.
As much as there could be secret salespeople on there, it's not very realistic. People know when they are talking to a store. It's not really something that catches them by surprise.
I'd argue that specialist that CDW bring on the line are not sales people - at least they are not suppose to be sales people - in talking to them the reality is that I have discovered them to all be sales people who are only trained in one or two products, maybe they know it well, maybe not. Granted as IT people we should be able to tell when talking to them, but I'm guessing that reality shows this to be very different situation and people (whomever they are) are using those resources inappropriately and sadly not realizing it until it's to late.
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@Dashrender said:
How are you suppose to know the difference between a sales person and non sales person - is it basically that you're paying someone?
If you are getting "free" advice something is wrong. You can get advice from friends, or by buying someone coffee or as a favour - those are not exactly free, we understand that you can get a friend to fix your car too. That's not a sales situation. But by and large, unless you have a relationship that covers the need to pay, you need to pay for skills like anything else. Skills are the most expensive commodity. Anyone can do sales, you don't need specific skills to do sales. You might be able to do even better by knowing more, but it isn't required.
To be a consultant in any given field, you need to have knowledge in that field. Sure, you could try to sell your services without having any skills, just like I could go claim to be an interior designer, but that's a separate issue. At least when you hire someone there is an obligation of them to you. When you work with a salesman, there is none. Their obligations are to the company, not to you.
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I couldn't agree more with everything you just typed.
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A good example is real estate. In the US at least, you have a buyer's advocate (consultant) and a seller's advocate (salesman.) The one represents you and protects you from salesman, helps you understand your needs, guides you in things you do not understand. There are legal protections (in the US) to keep seller and buyer's agents completely separate.
The seller's agent is just a salesman. They are on commission, they have only one job which is to convince people to buy the property.
When it comes to items as important as real estate, there are laws to make the sales and consulting pieces completely exposed and declared and to make sure that they never overlap. In things like IT, HR, etc. those conflicts of interest are for the customer to manage and to some degree this requires trust that the consultants are not lying about having a conflict of interest, but the basics are the same.
