Millennial generation
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@thecreativeone91 said:
But, that's how they make sure they get voted into the office you give everything to people who don't have it. and now, they of course will support you, because if they don't they won't have anything.
Democracy. Where the poor base is in power and the rich, smart or caring are the helpless minority.
Well, we that discussion the other day too. Did we ever agree on a good style that doesn't suffer from long term corruption? or even short term?
Power corrupts. But democracy has the fewest social checks and balances of any form.
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@scottalanmiller said:
Power corrupts. But democracy has the fewest social checks and balances of any form.
Dictatorship has no checks. Well, that is unless you take your gun and kill the dictator...
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@thecreativeone91 said:
Dictatorship has no checks. Well, that is unless you take your gun an kill the dictator...
It has strong social checks. Democracy has none. A dictator doing evil is seen as a failure by his people and by the world. A democracy doing evil has no one to blame or take responsibility. The social checks that exist for every form are lost with democracy, it is the only governmental form designed to remove all guilt from anyone, no matter how horrible of a decision that they make.
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Yes, but short of the gun from @thecreativeone91 how do you remove a dictator?
At least with a democracy you can vote people out. Sure it doesn't happen because people are in general lazy and can't be bothered to get involved..
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@Dashrender said:
Yes, but short of the gun from @thecreativeone91 how do you remove a dictator?
Hitler, Case in point. He was even able to manipulate his people into thinking he was good, and he was helping them. Protecting them from the enemy that's trying to come hurt them. Sound familiar?
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@thecreativeone91 I hate quoting the man, but he wasn't wrong - just a war criminal
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials -
@thecreativeone91 said:
Hitler, Case in point. He was even able to manipulate his people into thinking he was good, and he was helping them. Protecting them from the enemy that's trying to come hurt them. Sound familiar?
Well, he was only a dictator for a little bit and even then only kind of. Remember he was voted in via party politics. That was a country just coming out of a stable monarchy and floundering with democracy while being occupied. Doesn't make for a good example. They were only not an acting democracy during a war, never while peaceful.
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@MattSpeller said:
@thecreativeone91 I hate quoting the man, but he wasn't wrong - just a war criminal
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trialsJust remember, the leaders of a democracy are the poor. They choose the people on top.
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@Dashrender said:
Yes, but short of the gun from @thecreativeone91 how do you remove a dictator?
How do you remove the voters?
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@Dashrender said:
At least with a democracy you can vote people out.
No, you can't, because you are thinking of the person in power as the president, but the person in power is the polis. You can't vote out the polis. The polis is the group dictator, but without the social obligations or even the ability to assassinate!
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It's a weird time to be alive.
Netflix may be cheaper than cable, and "unlimited minutes" is standard for cell phones instead of being an unbelievable sales pitch nowadays, but a 15 minute ambulance ride can cost $1770 versus $0 thirty years ago.
For me it's not about whether or not we're "entitled" to receive healthcare or whatever. When a large part of my income goes directly to our defense budget in order to build tanks we don't need and ensure other nations don't ruin our lives, I'm left wondering why we can't collectively scrounge up enough to make sure an ambulance ride or getting a bachelor's degree can't do the same thing to someone living paycheck to paycheck.
I'm hoping that 10 years from now, there will either be major changes to the healthcare and educational systems in America or I will be an expat. It doesn't seem right for me to raise my children in one of the few developed countries where either one of these necessities can financially decimate them.
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@WingCreative said:
Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people on medicaid are against the idea of taxpayers paying for others' healthcare....
I think you got that backwards most people on medicaid are wanting it free. They are the ones that have been getting reduced cost items for years.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@WingCreative said:
Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people on medicaid are against the idea of taxpayers paying for others' healthcare....
I think you got that backwards most people on medicaid are wanting it free. They are the ones that have been getting reduced cost items for years.
Medicaid is for the poor, Medicare is for the retired (generally) - so I'd agree that those on Medicare don't want to see taxpayers paying for other's healthcare - because the believe is that they've paid into Medicare their whole working lives and are now receiving the benefit of their payments.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@WingCreative said:
Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people on medicaid are against the idea of taxpayers paying for others' healthcare....
I think you got that backwards most people on medicaid are wanting it free. They are the ones that have been getting reduced cost items for years.
@Dashrender said:
@thecreativeone91 said:
@WingCreative said:
Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people on medicaid are against the idea of taxpayers paying for others' healthcare....
I think you got that backwards most people on medicaid are wanting it free. They are the ones that have been getting reduced cost items for years.
Medicaid is for the poor, Medicare is for the retired (generally) - so I'd agree that those on Medicare don't want to see taxpayers paying for other's healthcare - because the believe is that they've paid into Medicare their whole working lives and are now receiving the benefit of their payments.
Oops - removed the incorrectly assigned snarkiness. Let these quotes stand as a testament to me being the latest one to get them confused
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The US was better off when the law allowed for landowners to vote (and excluded non-landowners). It weeded out the people who didn't read and write, and those who had made no long-term physical investment in prosperity... and all the whiners who were too lazy to get off their duff and contribute. If we could go back to that model, all the people with their hand out wouldn't need to be bought by the politicians, and the balance of power would move more to the middle of the field.
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@art_of_shred said:
The US was better off when the law allowed for landowners to vote (and excluded non-landowners).
This was something that it was designed for and planned around. The whole system only works conceptually when the voting pool is limited in this way. The idea of democracy was considered crazy and tantamount to anarchy by the founding fathers. Those who want democracy today either don't like what American was founded on (which is fine, I'm not promoting that as the only opinion) or haven't taken the time to study it at all and just assume that where we are today was what American was built on.
America was built on a very small voting pool of the elite (white, male, landed gentry) and only those tied to the land rather than business could vote (business didn't discount you, it just didn't count on its own.) The people voting were the equivalent of a nobility, they had nobles oblige, they had money, they had responsibilities, they were invested and they were tied to a location.
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It's funny that democracy is so fundamentally against everything American was built on, yet people always seem to think that being democratic is somehow pro-American.
In Europe there was a vote just last week where Turkey was considering going to a US form of government and the EU was freaking out because they were "leaving democracy behind" and on the verge of "dictatorship."
Perspective.
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I definitely see the point benefits of moving to a voting based on land ownership - I wonder if that's one of the founding pillars why the push to own your own home instead of renting came about.
How would a situation like that apply to say some place like NYC? How many apartments are owned by the people who live in them? Though maybe it doesn't matter, because the whole point is to give voting rights only to those who care enough to have a stake, i.e. own land.
Oh.. and I agree that businesses should have NO voting rights!
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@Dashrender said:
I definitely see the point benefits of moving to a voting based on land ownership - I wonder if that's one of the founding pillars why the push to own your own home instead of renting came about.
Most cultures have that. Home ownership has always been a status symbol and a mark of people who look to accumulate wealth rather than investing it (a problem that brought Ireland and Spain to their financial knees in recent years.)
