Non-IT News Thread
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Similarly, this is the same discussion that we had with the
moderators and why they were so upset with me about a year ago. I gave up my moderator powers on strict ethics grounds. To be a moderator you were required to agree to run scams on community members for the benefit of I refused and demanded all associated between me and the community ownership be severed completely, nothing could associate me with the company or the moderators. But everyone that accepted or remained a moderator accepted that terrible ethical position as something they were willing to do for whatever benefits being a moderator brought to them personally.I've had some moderators say that they just didn't care about the unethical things that they had to agree to, they didn't have the issues with professional and personal integrity that I did. I had one say that she accepted the ethical dilemma because she felt she was best "changing the group from the inside", and while I have no idea how that is supposed to work, it was an interesting reason for being willing to associate with illegal and utterly unethical agreements.
But so taking cops out of the equation, when being a voluntary member of a group that has to agree to questionable or outright unethical things to be a member, when does the ethical problems flow to those agreeing to participate?
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel... sure there have been and are bad police, IT staff, government staff, private companies, doctors, business man, marketing, but that doesn't make their industry or their profession bad....
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It's key to remember that all workers, whether community moderators, cops, politicians, drug dealers, whatever... are voluntary. In fact, it's hard to get any of those jobs. You have to put in a real effort to get into those organizations. It's never the "job you fall into when nothing else was available." Drug dealer, maybe, but even that can't be very casual. I'm decently educated and skilled and I certainly couldn't become a drug dealer easily, it would take a lot of research and effort. So people in these positions take a focused effort, work there way to membership in these organizations, and do so not just completely voluntarily, but they overcome natural barriers (such as lack of training) to get into them.
It's important to never treat voluntary group membership like something involuntary like race, gender, age, etc.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel...
How is it different? Many people in a drug cartel are "good" people. Accountants, farmers, truck drivers... cartels pay for many good things like hospitals, town infrastructures, etc.
These are, from what I can tell, as close an analogy as you can get. They are extremely similar.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel...
How is it different? Many people in a drug cartel are "good" people. Accountants, farmers, truck drivers... cartels pay for many good things like hospitals, town infrastructures, etc.
These are, from what I can tell, as close an analogy as you can get. They are extremely similar.
If you knowingly work for a drug cartel, that doesn't make it good because you are forced to do something. They know what they are doing, no matter if they are forced to do it or not. Way to different.
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How did this topic arise?
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical ...
Here is the thing....
Police, military, drug cartels are about as identical as you can get. All are totally voluntary (well, not all military), all do "good things for some people", all do "bad things to some people". They are as related as you can get. They all kill people, they all produce bad results, they all do good things for many people. All have people who support them. All have people who hate them. All are associations of people who have agreed to live with the negative aspects of the group because they are either okay with them or they feel that the positive outcomes of the group offset them. They all violate ethics to a point where large percentages of the population feel that their activities demand extreme punishments. All are sometimes seen as important parts of their culture or locality, all are sometimes seen as enemies of the state and population.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel...
How is it different? Many people in a drug cartel are "good" people. Accountants, farmers, truck drivers... cartels pay for many good things like hospitals, town infrastructures, etc.
These are, from what I can tell, as close an analogy as you can get. They are extremely similar.
If you knowingly work for a drug cartel, that doesn't make it good because you are forced to do something. They know what they are doing, no matter if they are forced to do it or not. Way to different.
Same for cops or military. That's the point. It's all the same in that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel...
How is it different? Many people in a drug cartel are "good" people. Accountants, farmers, truck drivers... cartels pay for many good things like hospitals, town infrastructures, etc.
These are, from what I can tell, as close an analogy as you can get. They are extremely similar.
Comparing police officers to drug cartels is as assinine an answer as I've ever seen you give. Lol. Painting everyone with a different color is still broad brush and absolutism. I find that people who answer in absolutes aren't credible anymore.
My comment above was about this specific incident. I personally know police officers who I would trust with my life. Not all cops are bad. Most likely do good, even though there are a number of bad apples who gain most of the attention in the media when they're caught. When was the last time you saw a news story about a cop saving a life? Pretty rare from what I've seen. But an officer shooting someone, that's hot news.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical ...
Here is the thing....
Police, military, drug cartels are about as identical as you can get. All are totally voluntary (well, not all military), all do "good things for some people", all do "bad things to some people". They are as related as you can get. They all kill people, they all produce bad results, they all do good things for many people. All have people who support them. All have people who hate them. All are associations of people who have agreed to live with the negative aspects of the group because they are either okay with them or they feel that the positive outcomes of the group offset them. They all violate ethics to a point where large percentages of the population feel that their activities demand extreme punishments. All are sometimes seen as important parts of their culture or locality, all are sometimes seen as enemies of the state and population.
So after all the semantics, which one you want to run your town? or what would you like to run your town?
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@nashbrydges said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Or another way of looking at it.... from a personal ethics perspective. Would you fine it morally reprehensible to be a cop yourself (in the US, outside the US the systems are unrelated.)? My personal ethics would not allow me to accept pay as a cop, I think it is morally wrong within the context of how cops operate today. But that means, every cop was willing to cross that ethical line that I'm not willing to cross, and most people I know would not. So that's a very different way to think about it.
How would a cop and their families live on no pay?
By getting a different job. How do drug cartel workers live with no pay? They get ethical jobs doing something else. No one is "born a cop" just like no one is "born a drug lord". Those are choices people make based on what they want to do.
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical is not way compared to a drug cartel...
How is it different? Many people in a drug cartel are "good" people. Accountants, farmers, truck drivers... cartels pay for many good things like hospitals, town infrastructures, etc.
These are, from what I can tell, as close an analogy as you can get. They are extremely similar.
Comparing police officers to drug cartels is as assinine an answer as I've ever seen you give. Lol. Painting everyone with a different color is still broad brush and absolutism. I find that people who answer in absolutes aren't credible anymore.
But so HOW are they different? If no one knows how, that suggests that they aren't.
It's not about absolutes, what I'm showing is that it is WAY less absolute than people want it to be. In fact, your statement here is the absolute one - that they are absolutely different and just are what they are.
But they aren't, they are related. Both have good bits, both have bad bits, both are voluntary.... it's a whole lot of grey, not the absolute good vs. bad that people want to treat them as.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical ...
Here is the thing....
Police, military, drug cartels are about as identical as you can get. All are totally voluntary (well, not all military), all do "good things for some people", all do "bad things to some people". They are as related as you can get. They all kill people, they all produce bad results, they all do good things for many people. All have people who support them. All have people who hate them. All are associations of people who have agreed to live with the negative aspects of the group because they are either okay with them or they feel that the positive outcomes of the group offset them. They all violate ethics to a point where large percentages of the population feel that their activities demand extreme punishments. All are sometimes seen as important parts of their culture or locality, all are sometimes seen as enemies of the state and population.
So after all the semantics, which one you want to run your town? or what would you like to run your town?
I want the populace to be in power, the citizens, not a group that has seized power. None of these.. cops, military, or cartels, are groups that should be running anything, ever. None of them are intended to run things. All are organizations with a job to do that doesn't involve running towns. All three are about equally bad when it comes to seizing power and controlling people.
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@nashbrydges said in Non-IT News Thread:
My comment above was about this specific incident. I personally know police officers who I would trust with my life. Not all cops are bad.
Of course, and I do too. We have a great friend who is a cop. I've dealt with many good cops. My town has been consistently good with cops (my friend isn't in this town.)
But, they all also voluntarily associate with some really, really bad activity. Which creates some ethical difficulties.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical ...
Here is the thing....
Police, military, drug cartels are about as identical as you can get. All are totally voluntary (well, not all military), all do "good things for some people", all do "bad things to some people". They are as related as you can get. They all kill people, they all produce bad results, they all do good things for many people. All have people who support them. All have people who hate them. All are associations of people who have agreed to live with the negative aspects of the group because they are either okay with them or they feel that the positive outcomes of the group offset them. They all violate ethics to a point where large percentages of the population feel that their activities demand extreme punishments. All are sometimes seen as important parts of their culture or locality, all are sometimes seen as enemies of the state and population.
So after all the semantics, which one you want to run your town? or what would you like to run your town?
I want the populace to be in power, the citizens, not a group that has seized power. None of these.. cops, military, or cartels, are groups that should be running anything, ever. None of them are intended to run things. All are organizations with a job to do that doesn't involve running towns. All three are about equally bad when it comes to seizing power and controlling people.
Which then turns citizens into what you said about cops and drug cartel then...? you will be surprised by the amount of things citizens hide around you...
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@nashbrydges said in Non-IT News Thread:
Most likely do good, even though there are a number of bad apples who gain most of the attention in the media when they're caught. When was the last time you saw a news story about a cop saving a life? Pretty rare from what I've seen. But an officer shooting someone, that's hot news.
I think this is where there is confusion, at least I feel that there is. My point is NOT that there are bad cops and therefore good cops are a problem for associating with them. Same as if there were bad community moderators that wouldn't necessarily make it an ethical problem for other moderators that are good.
No, in both cases my concern is with the organization or institution that controls the organizations in question and its unethical framework, requirements or behaviour. That's the issue.
That one bad cop, or even a thousand, do something bad is only a person "that one cop" issue. It's that good cops are members of an organization in which they and the organization work to protect and enable the bad cops to do what they do. Or the "good" moderators agree to support and participate in running scams. Even if they refuse to do it when it comes down to it, or they feel badly about doing it, they've agreed to be a member of and support an organization that is doing something bad.
It's the issues at teh organization level that make it a problem. Not the individuals. If it was purely a loose association of people who work in law enforcement, then the bad actions of one wouldn't be reflected by another. The issue is being part of the same organization (which could be local or state level, for example) and accepting the ethical position of that organization that things become difficult.
For example, bad cops in Houston might not reflect on bad cops in Dallas. Their associations may not be linked. But state level problems like Texas and Arizona have, create some ethical dilemas state wide, for example. But federally there is no linked problem. So even multiple states having ethical issues doesn't directly cause an ethical problem with cops in a different state.
Similarly one bad "in the news" drug cartel doesn't actually influence the ethics of a different cartel that isn't linked to them.
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@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dbeato said in Non-IT News Thread:
No one was born to be what they currently are now, they were born to live. WHat is an ethical job for you? Classifying all police work, army jobs and other institution jobs as unethical ...
Here is the thing....
Police, military, drug cartels are about as identical as you can get. All are totally voluntary (well, not all military), all do "good things for some people", all do "bad things to some people". They are as related as you can get. They all kill people, they all produce bad results, they all do good things for many people. All have people who support them. All have people who hate them. All are associations of people who have agreed to live with the negative aspects of the group because they are either okay with them or they feel that the positive outcomes of the group offset them. They all violate ethics to a point where large percentages of the population feel that their activities demand extreme punishments. All are sometimes seen as important parts of their culture or locality, all are sometimes seen as enemies of the state and population.
So after all the semantics, which one you want to run your town? or what would you like to run your town?
I want the populace to be in power, the citizens, not a group that has seized power. None of these.. cops, military, or cartels, are groups that should be running anything, ever. None of them are intended to run things. All are organizations with a job to do that doesn't involve running towns. All three are about equally bad when it comes to seizing power and controlling people.
Which then turns citizens into what you said about cops and drug cartel then...? you will be surprised by the amount of things citizens hide around you...
Ah yes, but that's different. They are not a linked organization and we are willing to hold them accountable as individuals. That's all we want from the police, for example.
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Well no, we also want bad cops to stop being bad, obviously. What I meant in "what we want from the cops" is for the associations that cops are under whether state or local, to act ethically and hold cops accountable for crimes and not use their associations to cover up, commit, or encourage criminal behaviour.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Well no, we also want bad cops to stop being bad, obviously. What I meant in "what we want from the cops" is for the associations that cops are under whether state or local, to act ethically and hold cops accountable for crimes and not use their associations to cover up, commit, or encourage criminal behaviour.
Is it the cops job to arrest a co-worker who has done something when there is a process in place already to determine if the actions of the cop were illegal or not?
Cops are granted a bit more immunity to the law because, they often have to break the law (speeding as an example) in order to prevent a worse crime (murder).
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Well no, we also want bad cops to stop being bad, obviously. What I meant in "what we want from the cops" is for the associations that cops are under whether state or local, to act ethically and hold cops accountable for crimes and not use their associations to cover up, commit, or encourage criminal behaviour.
Is it the cops job to arrest a co-worker who has done something when there is a process in place already to determine if the actions of the cop were illegal or not?
Cops are granted a bit more immunity to the law because, they often have to break the law (speeding as an example) in order to prevent a worse crime (murder).
How very consequentist of you.
