Writing a Cover Letter
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@IRJ said:
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
Well, one point is to see if the candidate is prepared to carry out my simple instruction, even if they disagree with it.
Let me ask you this, do you also refuse to answer interview questions if you think they're pointless?
The only questions that are pointless are if they meet two criteria: they have no purpose and you already know the answer. Besides, if someone asked me a question on an interview, there is a reason for it. Now I ask you: why require a cover letter? You've stated you aren't looking for anything eloquent, which means that, at best, you're looking for average level writing on the letters. Now your point about following instructions I get, and agree with. However, I think you need to ask yourself why you are asking for a cover letter. What does it accomplish? If you have a mediocre standard for the letters, what do they prove? If you get what you're expecting, then it's going to not be worth much. If you get someone who can write eloquently, then you are pleasantly surprised, and maybe even impressed. Suddenly you're giving that person a closer look, which basically means you ARE looking for eloquent but not setting that as your expectation.
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@coliver said:
it potentially tells you about their friend's (or librarian sister in-law) who proofread and made significant changes to it... soft skills.
See, this is perfect for me. It demonstrates that they've recognised their weakness and instead of giving up they've gone out and asked someone who does have the right skills in that particular area to help them. This is exactly what I'm looking for in a good IT guy. Give me someone who knows when and where to get help over one who only relies on his own skill-sets.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@coliver said:
it potentially tells you about their friend's (or librarian sister in-law) who proofread and made significant changes to it... soft skills.
See, this is perfect for me. It demonstrates that they've recognised their weakness and instead of giving up they've gone out and asked someone who does have the right skills in that particular area to help them. This is exactly what I'm looking for in a good IT guy. Give me someone who knows when and where to get help over one who only relies on his own skill-sets.
But again... that really isn't what a cover letter tells you, since you really have no way of know when/who/if they went to someone else for help. It does tell you that this person is willing to take credit for work that wasn't their own and lie to you before you even get to the interview process.
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@coliver said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@IRJ said:
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
Well, one point is to see if the candidate is prepared to carry out my simple instruction, even if they disagree with it.
So... what you are looking for isn't an employee who is looking to grow and expand in their job... you are looking for a drone with unquestionable loyalty? Really glad I'm not applying for this position.
Let me ask you this, do you also refuse to answer interview questions if you think they're pointless?
I would ask what it pertains to and answer it with that understanding. If it was something pointless and they didn't give me a good enough reason to proceed or it was harmful to my position (or illegal to ask during an interview, which has happened) I would say I'm not comfortable answering that.
Interviewing is a two way street, not only are you trying to learn about that candidate but they are trying to learn about your business and environment.
This is also an excellent point. Interviews are not me getting interviewed by you. In a good interview, I question you as much as you question me. Maybe even more. Because as much as you need to know I'm right for your company, I need to know your company is right for me.
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@coliver said:
So... what you are looking for isn't an employee who is looking to grow and expand in their job... you are looking for a drone with unquestionable loyalty? Really glad I'm not applying for this position.
Er...no. There is a massive difference between questioning your boss and simply refusing to do what he asks. I argue with my boss all the time, but if I can't make him change his mind then I'll do what he asks.
I guess you are looking for a job where you can pick and choose which tasks to do? I'm glad you're not applying for this position.
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@coliver said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
@coliver said:
it potentially tells you about their friend's (or librarian sister in-law) who proofread and made significant changes to it... soft skills.
See, this is perfect for me. It demonstrates that they've recognised their weakness and instead of giving up they've gone out and asked someone who does have the right skills in that particular area to help them. This is exactly what I'm looking for in a good IT guy. Give me someone who knows when and where to get help over one who only relies on his own skill-sets.
But again... that really isn't what a cover letter tells you, since you really have no way of know when/who/if they went to someone else for help. It does tell you that this person is willing to take credit for work that wasn't their own and lie to you before you even get to the interview process.
Yeah, this. ^^ If he did have one person, or half a dozen people, proofread it and fix mistakes, etc. unless he puts in his cover letter that he got help on the letter, which no sane person is going to do, then you have no way of knowing this, which means the cover letter does nothing but deceive YOU the hiring party. Now if he comes in for an interview, unless you directly ask him "did anyone help you write your cover letter", and he's honest, which would be unlikely in this case, then you're still no more informed.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@coliver said:
So... what you are looking for isn't an employee who is looking to grow and expand in their job... you are looking for a drone with unquestionable loyalty? Really glad I'm not applying for this position.
Er...no. There is a massive difference between questioning your boss and simply refusing to do what he asks. I argue with my boss all the time, but if I can't make him change his mind then I'll do what he asks.
I guess you are looking for a job where you can pick and choose which tasks to do? I'm glad you're not applying for this position.
I refuse to work for stupid people, which considering I like working at MSPs may seem weird, but I'm not working for the clients, I work for the MSP. If I had a boss that repeatedly did things that made no sense against the word of myself and/or others when we are supposed to be the experts on the matter, then I would find alternate employment. I have a real aversion to bashing my head against the wall unnecessarily.
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If you're unenthused about writing the cover letter, it probably means you're not excited about the job itself.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@IRJ said:
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
Well, one point is to see if the candidate is prepared to carry out my simple instruction, even if they disagree with it.
Let me ask you this, do you also refuse to answer interview questions if you think they're pointless?
That is a politician response if I have ever seen one. You can't give a valid reason of Why so you turn the question around about something completely unrelated. I'll bite the bait, though.
It really depends on how outlandish the questions are. Are you going to ask if I prefer Mickey Mouse or Goofy? or are you going to ask me actual technical and business type questions?
If you can't give a valid reason for a requirement, then it probably shouldn't be a requirement. I could also say that I want all applicants to attach a .jpg of their favorite disney character just to see if they follow instructions.
Great IT people don't necessarily NEED your position. You have to think about the applicants, too. Sure there are those that are a desperate for a job and will do anything to get it, but those people probably aren't the best IT people around. The more hoops you require people to jump though, the less good IT people are going to care about your position. You said this for SMB so its not like this is anyone in particular's dream job where they are going to go out and pay someone to write a professional cover letter addressed just to you for this position. Especially when they can just apply in bulk to other jobs on CareerBuilder.
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@Nic said:
If you're unenthused about writing the cover letter, it probably means you're not excited about the job itself.
Who gets super excited about SMB jobs that are a dime a dozen? I say this because they are at least 10 of these positions available at all times on careerbuilder so its really hard to get super excited about a particular one.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@coliver said:
So... what you are looking for isn't an employee who is looking to grow and expand in their job... you are looking for a drone with unquestionable loyalty? Really glad I'm not applying for this position.
Er...no. There is a massive difference between questioning your boss and simply refusing to do what he asks. I argue with my boss all the time, but if I can't make him change his mind then I'll do what he asks.
I guess you are looking for a job where you can pick and choose which tasks to do? I'm glad you're not applying for this position.
On the contrary, I'm looking for a job where I can grown, learn, and understand the reasoning behind certain things... if I have shown that there is a better more efficient way of doing something and the old archaic way is still demanded then there is a disconnect between what I expect and what is expected of me. I would have that conversation with my boss. If the entire reasoning behind them wanting something done is because it has always been that way... then that is a conversation of why has it always been that way. Picking and choosing useless and unnecessary tasks is definitely something everyone should be looking to do. Being more efficient and effective is kind of what our jobs are all about.
The old adage, your job isn't to understand it is to do, really doesn't fly with me. Admittedly I've been very spoiled when it comes to this, if I don't understand the reasoning behind something I ask and at all of my previous positions my boss (and their boss if I asked them) would give me their reasoning, if I questioned that reasoning then they questioned it too, they trusted me enough to know that maybe there are better ways of doing things then what has always been done... of course that would require that you trust the people you hire.
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@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm not asking for an eloquent covering letter, I'm asking for a covering letter.
Why?
I kind of agree with this. What you've just said is that you are expecting mediocre and that average is the standard to meet. At that point, what purpose does it serve? To me this reads "I want a cover letter for the sake of having a cover letter".
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
You aren't a horrible writer. I've seen your work. You're not bad. You're what I've seen from a lot of IT people whose writing I've seen. Writing eloquently requires a certain way of thinking that some have and some don't. I see a lot of people get into IT because they lack that way of thinking, which is more of a creative art than a technical one. That being said, many IT people have the same ability but manifest it through music or other art that isn't written. But if I was a hiring manager, I would look at technical first and foremost. Writing is important to me, and God knows I'm a grammar Nazi, but it's a much lower priority.
I can pick the right words, but my punctuation and sentence structure is bad.
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@thanksaj said:
I refuse to work for stupid people, which considering I like working at MSPs may seem weird, but I'm not working for the clients, I work for the MSP. If I had a boss that repeatedly did things that made no sense against the word of myself and/or others when we are supposed to be the experts on the matter, then I would find alternate employment. I have a real aversion to bashing my head against the wall unnecessarily.
This is one task - writing a covering letter. In any job, you're never going to agree with your boss on everything. It would be arrogant to assume you're always right and they're always wrong. A lot of times, there are many ways of doing things and people have different opinions. But as the boss, if the shit hits the fan then it is my neck on the line. If my staff screw up then I always take the blame in front of my bosses - I never let them take the blame. I can be persuaded to change my mind, but ultimately as it's my neck on the line, it's my way or the highway (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors).
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@IRJ said:
You can't give a valid reason of Why so you turn the question around about something completely unrelated. I'll bite the bait, though.
I can give a reason, but you may not think it's valid. I always thought of a covering letter as being a bit more personal and a bit more targeted to the actual job, whereas a CV/resume is a bit more generic.
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
When I started my career, pre-internet, I'd go to the public library to research the company I was applying for. It was a lot of effort. I don't remember IT jobs being a dime-a-dozen back then, but perhaps I was just crap? I certainly didn't find it easy to find really good jobs in my twenties. Maybe the world has changed since.
The only thing I'm confused about - if SMB jobs are so easy to come by, why are there so many threads on Spiceworks about crap SMB jobs? Why don't these people just quit and get a new job? There seems to be a new thread every day. Working for me would be a breeze compared with the experiences I read about on there.
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@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@thanksaj said:
@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'm not asking for an eloquent covering letter, I'm asking for a covering letter.
Why?
I kind of agree with this. What you've just said is that you are expecting mediocre and that average is the standard to meet. At that point, what purpose does it serve? To me this reads "I want a cover letter for the sake of having a cover letter".
Exactly what is the point? This is why I don't do cover letters since my writing isn't so great. It would only devalue my resume
You aren't a horrible writer. I've seen your work. You're not bad. You're what I've seen from a lot of IT people whose writing I've seen. Writing eloquently requires a certain way of thinking that some have and some don't. I see a lot of people get into IT because they lack that way of thinking, which is more of a creative art than a technical one. That being said, many IT people have the same ability but manifest it through music or other art that isn't written. But if I was a hiring manager, I would look at technical first and foremost. Writing is important to me, and God knows I'm a grammar Nazi, but it's a much lower priority.
I can pick the right words, but my punctuation and sentence structure is bad.
Writing is an interesting skill, because you have the creative side, which is picking your words and creating a flow with your sentences, both individually and as paragraphs, and then there is the technical side, which is all the rules of grammar and syntax, etc. That doesn't even touch on the pure knowledge portion of knowing what synonyms you can use in place of a word like good or nice that makes it sound better, or more sophisticated/suave. Whatever, it's no big deal.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
The only thing I'm confused about - if SMB jobs are so easy to come by, why are there so many threads on Spiceworks about crap SMB jobs? Why don't these people just quit and get a new job? There seems to be a new thread every day. Working for me would be a breeze compared with the experiences I read about on there.
What I meant was if I login to career builder right now and search for jobs in my area, I will see at least 10 SMB jobs that are very similiar. I would definitely apply to them, but I wouldn't necessarily get all worked up over one particular posting
Does that make sense?
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@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
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@Carnival-Boy said:
@thanksaj said:
I refuse to work for stupid people, which considering I like working at MSPs may seem weird, but I'm not working for the clients, I work for the MSP. If I had a boss that repeatedly did things that made no sense against the word of myself and/or others when we are supposed to be the experts on the matter, then I would find alternate employment. I have a real aversion to bashing my head against the wall unnecessarily.
This is one task - writing a covering letter. In any job, you're never going to agree with your boss on everything. It would be arrogant to assume you're always right and they're always wrong. A lot of times, there are many ways of doing things and people have different opinions. But as the boss, if the shit hits the fan then it is my neck on the line. If my staff screw up then I always take the blame in front of my bosses - I never let them take the blame. I can be persuaded to change my mind, but ultimately as it's my neck on the line, it's my way or the highway (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors).
I never said that I had to agree with everything that was done. I am not conceited into believing that I'm always right or that my way is the only way. I also know that, like you said, when the shit hits the fan, it's my boss who will ultimately pay the price. I respect that they are in that position. I am with @coliver in that I expect that if I raise a question, it should be answered. If I have an idea as to another way, I expect to at least be heard. Even if they decide the original way or some other way is better, that's fine. I just can't tolerate being ignored. But now we're getting off-topic from our discussion about why you require a cover letter. So far all you've said is that you require it so people should provide it. You haven't actually explained why you want it.
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@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
I was going to reply to say this. Generally those are questions better answered (and observed) during an interview. I don't see those really effecting the decision to give someone an interview though which is why I don't really understand why they should be included in a cover letter.
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@IRJ said:
@Carnival-Boy said:
I'd like it to give a reason why they're applying. For example, "I currently work for a large organisation but would prefer to work for an SMB", or "I currently work for a distribution company but would prefer to work for a manufacturing company". I don't know, just something a bit personal. A few sentences without any spelling mistakes. I don't think that's asking too much.
I think that's fair question. I have seen employers post a question like that on job postings, but more times than not that is the type of question that is asked in the interview.
Exactly. You shouldn't be trying to get to know someone from a cover letter, because unless it's several pages long, you will be missing so much context. Resumes are generic, because you're looking at the value the person would add from a technical perspective. Once you establish that out of 10 candidates, 3 have the technical qualifications you need, you can call them in for an interview. Once there, ask them why they are considering this job. What excites them about it? You can ask them more about their history and get a story. You also get a face to put to the name, and you can look them in the eyes and see what kind of person they are. That may seem like a very old-fashioned concept, but I am a firm believer that you can tell an enormous amount about a person based solely on what you see what you look in their eyes when they're talking.
