Access 2003 in a 2021 World???
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize.
I'd like to see that video. I've never heard of a company being sorry in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know why your customers feel like this.
I don't know how you could possibly build something for less - developing an ERP system from scratch is a massive expense. I think it would be ridiculous to even think about it.
I'll add that to the video list
But the fast economic basics are that off the shelf ERPs typically require a staggering amount of customization at rates that normally exceed bespoke development (meaning per hour cost is higher because it's neither fun nor rewarding nor using good tools) and COTS ERPs are normally bloating with tons of unneeded components that most customers will never need. And making a bespoke system means ground up design for the needs of the customer, lower development costs, and only making what is needed.So your thought that an ERP would be staggering to make.. I totally agree. But what gives the bespoke approach a chance is that they tend to only need to remake maybe 20% of what goes into a standard ERP. Every customer needs a different 20%, of course, that's why there isn't one ERP to rule them all.
This is why many ERP vendors only have a handful of customers. Every little industry has a bunch of specialty ERP players that have just a few customers and yet still make money.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
This... I need to make a video on why buying an ERP is almost never the right answer. Almost every customer that we have that we manage an ERP for is sorry that they didn't spend the same (or less) money building something that they could control and customize.
I'd like to see that video. I've never heard of a company being sorry in the way you describe. I'd be interested to know why your customers feel like this.
I don't know how you could possibly build something for less - developing an ERP system from scratch is a massive expense. I think it would be ridiculous to even think about it.
I'll add that to the video list
But the fast economic basics are that off the shelf ERPs typically require a staggering amount of customization at rates that normally exceed bespoke development (meaning per hour cost is higher because it's neither fun nor rewarding nor using good tools) and COTS ERPs are normally bloating with tons of unneeded components that most customers will never need. And making a bespoke system means ground up design for the needs of the customer, lower development costs, and only making what is needed.So your thought that an ERP would be staggering to make.. I totally agree. But what gives the bespoke approach a chance is that they tend to only need to remake maybe 20% of what goes into a standard ERP. Every customer needs a different 20%, of course, that's why there isn't one ERP to rule them all.
This is why many ERP vendors only have a handful of customers. Every little industry has a bunch of specialty ERP players that have just a few customers and yet still make money.
I'll also add to that a lot of companies still have a "standard" ERP but have other systems that ties into the ERP. For instance a manufacturer may use SAP as their ERP and they might plan their production in SAP but actually executing and keeping track of the production is not done in SAP and they'll use their own custom made solution for that.
PS. I wrote "standard" ERP above because in the case of the typical SAP clients the ERP is usually heavily customized. Every company buys into the solution thinking they only need some "minor" customization but 10 years and lots of $$$$$ later, they realize that's not the case.
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@Pete-S yeah.... the ERP tends to have so many hidden costs...
- Up front cost of the base ERP, typically a sticker-shock level cost
- Then years of customization at very high cost
- Then hidden fees everywhere for required, but not included, components (SQL Server?)
- Often use fees (per user, per core, etc.)
- Then redevelopment cost every time the underlying system changes
- Higher than needed IT costs due to unnecessary complexity.
It just never ends. Every time they turn around, there's another cost.
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@scottalanmiller
But you've got those costs regardless? You need to maintain a bespoke ERP and constantly develop it due to changes in technology, legislation, business needs etc.SaaS provides more certainty and ease of admin. Microsoft Dynamics BC, for example, is $100 per month per user and for that you get a new version of the software every month and no worries and all the benefits of SaaS.
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So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
The parts of the ERP they actually need yes.
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
But you've got those costs regardless? You need to maintain a bespoke ERP and constantly develop it due to changes in technology, legislation, business needs etc.
Sure, but they will be more like 5% the cost of doing the same thing on someone else's platform, technology, decisions, etc.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
SaaS provides more certainty and ease of admin. Microsoft Dynamics BC, for example, is $100 per month per user and for that you get a new version of the software every month and no worries and all the benefits of SaaS.
Assuming you don't need to customize it.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
So I understand you, you're talking about designing and developing a bespoke ERP system in-house? So general ledger, receivables, payables, purchasing, sales, inventory, manufacturing? From scratch?
The parts of the ERP they actually need yes.
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
Exactly, most of it goes unused or you have to dramatically change your company to accomodate the product or you need to buy multiple products or essentially write your own product on top of theirs.
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huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
huh, I just did some quick math for my environment.
We pay our EMR vendor something like 5% of our billables for access to platform, our $12 million/year operation then pays roughly $600K/yr... that's a lot of development we could hire and end up with a situation where we can have EXACTLY what we want.
Wow, yeah. Now that includes the software and hosting, I'm sure. So you don't have a bunch of hidden costs like server licensing and CALs and MS Office and other extra costs sneaking in here and there. But wow, it's a lot.
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
We have customers who do this (not with us) and they don't just consider it a huge financial win, but it's also a big strategic advantage as their ERP lets them do things that their competitors can't.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
Basically, yes. Because few businesses actually run ERP as you define it.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
His point is that most companies don’t need all of those pieces in the ERP because some of them are handled in a different thing.
If they're handled in a different thing then we're not really talking about ERP. ERP is different things handled in one thing. It seems like we're talking about several separate systems, not ERP.
Which is fine. So you have a standalone finance system, and a standalone stock control system, and a standalone sales order processing system. But none of those are ERP on their own and you lose many of the benefits of running ERP.
So the argument isn't "build an ERP system in-house", it's "don't run ERP".
I'd go the other way - run ERP, but only as bespoke software. If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
I agree, it does seem like a lot of work. I can't see the attraction. It feels a bit too 1980s.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
If you have all those different products, you likely have tons of work-arounds you have to do to get data to work together... plus the cost of managing them all separately...
I agree, it does seem like a lot of work. I can't see the attraction. It feels a bit too 1980s.
The problem is getting a company to see how much they are actually spending on their ERP components.
I have a vendor that has an ancient AS400, running Daily and Wilcot. I don't think the software has received an update in 15 years, possibly more like 20+. I've been begging them to move to another platform for 5+ years - old hardware, hard to get replacements, etc...
They really need to move to another platform, In light of this conversation, I wonder if they would be better off hiring someone like Bundy or NTG (I think they do dev) to make them a platform for what they need...
Potentially one of the biggest hurdles is getting their old data out.
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@Dashrender said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
Potentially one of the biggest hurdles is getting their old data out.
Potentially, but not likely.
Those systems are mostly just formatted text records. The only hard part is knowing the data structure and then you just write something to parse it all out out.
I've done it before with a Baby36 system that had a full package wrote in RPG II.
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@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
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@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
My experience may be skewed, but in my experience, many companies (that are not on the fortune list) that get custom bespoke software don't hire the developers directly. They pay a small development firm to write something for them.
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@JaredBusch said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@Carnival-Boy said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
@scottalanmiller said in Access 2003 in a 2021 World???:
That kind of budget would easily get you a full time crew of three people, if not more, that create exactly what you want and are there to develop, improve, update, tweak, etc. for forever.
It feels like you believe in outsourcing IT but insourcing ERP. But all the arguments you've made regarding outsourcing IT equally apply to ERP, if not more so. I feel you're taking a contradictory position.
My experience may be skewed, but in my experience, many companies (that are not on the fortune list) that get custom bespoke software don't hire the developers directly. They pay a small development firm to write something for them.
This would seem like a better option.
I mentioned this to my client that's still on an ancient AS400 - first words out of her mouth - yeah, they write it, then quit and no one knows it or can update it...
Seems like a good reason to go with a company with a development history.
