Looking to Buy a SAN
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@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
So - @ScottyBoy
Do you want assistance engineering a real solution for the business case? or
Do you just want a SAN because that's what someone at the company has already signed off on?If option 1 - please tell us the goals of this project,
if option 2 - frankly, almost anything your sales guy is pitching is likely going to function for a time, until it doesn't. Assuming you get three years out of it, you'll likely be off the hook for any issues that arise at the point.How about it? which option would you like help with?
We're happy to do either, we just need to understand how much we should "help". It can easily go either way. If we guess, we are guaranteed to get it wrong
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@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
We're doing FCoE, not Iscsi for sure.
Then why so many 10 GigE ports?
FCoE uses the same ports as iSCSI. It's just not as fast as the newer iSCSI like Starwind is doing.
oh - my bad.. I read it wrong.
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@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
We're doing FCoE, not Iscsi for sure.
Then why so many 10 GigE ports?
FCoE uses the same ports as iSCSI. It's just not as fast as the newer iSCSI like Starwind is doing.
oh - my bad.. I read it wrong.
iSER is the fast iSCSI, if I remember. Insanely fast without needing the FC infrastructure.
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Yeah, just checked, it iSER. It puts iSCSI directly over RDMA so it's crazy fast and straight through the RAM channel. You can do it on Infiniband so that it is faster than FC or Ethernet can do.
https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/ESF/FCoE-vs-iSCSI-vs-iSER-Final.pdf
iSER was presented at MangoCon 2018. Max gave a good talk on it.
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I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
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@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
Yeah, just checked, it iSER. It puts iSCSI directly over RDMA so it's crazy fast and straight through the RAM channel. You can do it on Infiniband so that it is faster than FC or Ethernet can do.
https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/ESF/FCoE-vs-iSCSI-vs-iSER-Final.pdf
iSER was presented at MangoCon 2018. Max gave a good talk on it.
I believe NVMe-oF (NVMe over Fabric) has the highest performance nowadays and is expected to replace iSCSI (and iSER). It can also use RDMA but uses the much leaner NVMe protocol so it will always be faster over the same type of connection.
https://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/news/iSCSI-Future-Cloud-Storage-Doomed-NVMe-oF.pdf -
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
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@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
Nah, you still could easily use cloud. It just requires a complete rethinking of how to provide needed services. Which I doubt anyone there would even entertain the ideas given the current track record.
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@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
Sure, while cloud is nice for certain workloads, it's hardly a general place replacement for local systems in most businesses today. Some stuff, sure, but loads and loads of cases where in house servers are still absolutely the only sensible thing. Over 90% of our clients don't even have cloud as an option either.
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@travisdh1 said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
Nah, you still could easily use cloud. It just requires a complete rethinking of how to provide needed services. Which I doubt anyone there would even entertain the ideas given the current track record.
He means hosted cloud and in many, many cases it wouldn't be an option at all. If they are doing this for lots of video processing, for example, the latency might easily make it impossible. Or streaming rates. Could they get a nearby cloud and build their own dedicated network to it with $100,000 a month custom pipe? Maybe. But for something like a TV station it's easy to see that getting completely off into la la land to try to go cloud. It's not that it is strictly "impossible", but it is very, very easily "difficult to the point of essentially impossible". Like, can you use an array of 10,000 floppies as your storage... technically yes but... no.
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@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
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@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
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@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
I'm guessing they had to be Windows? Otherwise - WOW Azure for VMs.. pricey!
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@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
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We ended up going going with two Nimble AF80s all flash with 100TB usable. One going in the main DC one going in the hot spare, replicating.
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@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
We ended up going going with two Nimble AF80s all flash with 100TB usable. One going in the main DC one going in the hot spare, replicating.
That's the way to do it and Nimble is one of the best product lines. Really nice stuff and pretty easy to use. I think you'll like working with it and their usage analytics are supposed to be the best.
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@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@coliver said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
The other solution is to not design an IPOD.
Exactly. Buy a correctly sized Scale box - no IPOD... sure, huge upfront cost, but who knows over the long term compared to Azure. etc etc etc.. We don't have any of the other needed information to know if going to Azure was the right move or not... but it's done, so we move on.
Literally everything is cheap compared to Azure. LOL. Even with all their specialty serverless whatever, never seen it cost close to what running your own would do. The cost is just so absurd per workload.
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@Dashrender said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
I'm guessing they had to be Windows? Otherwise - WOW Azure for VMs.. pricey!
Even worse if it is Windows, actually.
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@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
Right, why would either option even be considered? Good cloud or good on premises is where you start. An IPOD shouldn't even enter the decision matrix. It's called a false option, that kind of stuff is used in psychology to trick an emotional response to choose something obviously bad based on a known absurd alternative that isn't a reasonable alternative.
I can't afford a Porsche!
But a Ferrari is SO much more!
Oh yeah, I guess a Porsche is a good deal.
Um, no, go price out a Toyota to compare!
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@scottalanmiller said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@ScottyBoy said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
@flaxking said in Looking to Buy a SAN:
I've recognized an IPOD and witnessed it play out.
In the end the business decided it made more financial sense to put 200 VMs in Azure.
This is for a TV station cloud simply isn't an option to run this stuff unfortunately.
My point is that putting a bunch of VMs in Azure is a pretty expensive solution, but dealing with an IPOD ends up costing the business enough that the cost is acceptable.
Right, why would either option even be considered? Good cloud or good on premises is where you start. An IPOD shouldn't even enter the decision matrix. It's called a false option, that kind of stuff is used in psychology to trick an emotional response to choose something obviously bad based on a known absurd alternative that isn't a reasonable alternative.
I can't afford a Porsche!
But a Ferrari is SO much more!
Oh yeah, I guess a Porsche is a good deal.
Um, no, go price out a Toyota to compare!
I'm not saying anyone should actually do a comparison like that. Poor infrastructure decisions brought us to a breaking point where we needed to do an immediate nuke and pave of the whole environment in order to save the business.
