Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...
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@wrx7m said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Florida_man said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@flaxking said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
Many of the sysadmin jobs I've been applying for want repo links. So when you have a family, and a job where sometimes you have to work 100 hour weeks - and that doesn't let you open source your configuration as code, you have to pick your battles.
And then there's the homework assignments, one job had me submit an architecture design even before I had an interview with the recruiter.
huh - did you send them an bill? That does seem unreasonable - you produced work, you should be compensated... who's to say they aren't just using you for free architecture design?
Yes. Being able to explain it in an interview totally acceptable, but providing finished document before interview unacceptable
I have a friend who is a trainer for a larger tech company. When she was interviewing for that job (or another one), she had to do a training presentation on something as part of her interview. I know it isn't quite the same, but still similar.
If an interview asks you to do your job in a way that can't be used for profit, that's generally fine. So just showing training is generally good. But asking to do a task the company failed to do is a common tactic to get free high end labour.
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@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
uh - you missed the point. You typically submit your resume first - so having certs on the resume is why HR calls you in the first place... sure, if they call you - then do what you just said, but before that, the certs are the reason they called you in a lot of cases...
Only if you want to work in shops where HR filters before experts evaluate. If that's the job you want or are willing to accept, that's fine, but that alone means you are choosing a cert entry level shop. Shops doing that can't get SMEs, for example. SMEs don't need to work for shops that act that way, and would be embarrassed to do so. There is more money, respect, and prestige at good shops.
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@PhlipElder said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
Being public and social with one's experience makes for a great CV (Curriculum Vitae).
This is huge. A real actual showcase to skill.
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@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Emad-R said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
Not really, I'm severely lacking in IT certs but I'm doing fine in Canada, Toronto nearly 100K salary range.
Just be walking portfolio, and have projects that you can demo and ace the interviews like I have a domain with a lot of my work publically available, and I tell them if they want to research me go to ML and read my posts
Also Im new to Toronto, been here for 4 months
And the vibe im getting is they want people with experiance and not certs, but hey i follow SAM ideas and concepts closely, so he said this many times when you have family or friend that has IT thing make project out of it and document it and mention it, get your hands dirty you know, but credit that. That said Im the type that go home and work on my shit and experiment with new tech nearly everyday or week at least. So YMMV
This works only if you can get past the HR goons. Which is the world that Scott and his level of experience gain him. His skill/knowledge is that that he's often being recruited, he's not sending in resume's looking for a job.. so I don't consider his experiences the norm.
Except it could be the norm. People choose not to be in this position. Most people do whatever teachers and college professors say to do, whatever recruiting professionals want, and are herded into lower pay situations because it's in everyone that they listen to's interest to do so. But it's simply a choice to not function that way for the majority of pros.
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@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Emad-R said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
Not really, I'm severely lacking in IT certs but I'm doing fine in Canada, Toronto nearly 100K salary range.
Just be walking portfolio, and have projects that you can demo and ace the interviews like I have a domain with a lot of my work publically available, and I tell them if they want to research me go to ML and read my posts
Also Im new to Toronto, been here for 4 months
And the vibe im getting is they want people with experiance and not certs, but hey i follow SAM ideas and concepts closely, so he said this many times when you have family or friend that has IT thing make project out of it and document it and mention it, get your hands dirty you know, but credit that. That said Im the type that go home and work on my shit and experiment with new tech nearly everyday or week at least. So YMMV
This works only if you can get past the HR goons. Which is the world that Scott and his level of experience gain him. His skill/knowledge is that that he's often being recruited, he's not sending in resume's looking for a job.. so I don't consider his experiences the norm.
I think the issue here is chicken and egg. But I was the same as everyone else. Until I started doing those things that flipped it for me. I didn't get jobs that wanted a walking portfolio and then get one. I built my career into a portfolio then started getting those jobs. Building a portfolio is something nearly any high schooler could do if they were interested and driven, it's well within almost anyone's reach (especially in the US.) It just takes effort. But pretty much the same effort you need to learn the skills in the first place. So not like wasted effort.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Florida_man said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
While that statement can certainly be true, the difference is proving you know something to your NEXT employer.
Certs famously prove nothing, though. That's the hardest part. It sounds good, but it means you are focused on employers who look to paper rather than results.
Nothing wrong with having certs, but an employer who cares about them is similar to an employer that cares about a degree.
It's not easy to pass many certifications unless you work with the stuff daily for a long time and know quite a bit about each competency.
I've taken quite a few certifications, and know from experience that, had I not been actively involved and working with just about all of the competencies for a decent time period, there's no way I'd have passed. It's the kind of things that real-life experience working with that stuff, running into issues and solving them yourself, setting up from scratch, working out the bugs, etc... that kind of stuff is what helps you with passing the exams.
Personally, it was a combination of on-the-job experience with reading a book or two end to end, plus some videos. I can't speak for everyone, but all three of those are required to pass. I know there are exceptions for those who can read something, and remember it so well they ace the exam, but that's not typical, and certainly isn't me. I learn best by experience, and that's what did it for me the most. The books helped fill in the gaps for me, but it's the experience that has the greatest weight.
Most of mine were with Microsoft, so I know for a fact that the way they are designed, unless you work a lot with most of what they cover, there's no way to pass, unless you are extremely great at studying, labs, etc (which isn't hard, but it forces you to actually know the stuff to a decent level that's worth considering for hiring). I've also done ITIL 4 and SCRUM, which both of them also require you to know most of the stuff. Granted, those were held after a 3-5 day course, so a lot was fresh in mind. But the important stuff sticks and is valuable to the workplace.
In IT, I see certs as worth more than a degree, but less than proven experience by itself. SO I don't agree with you that they are as worthless as you seem to think they are.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Microsoft certs are the ones most famous for being worthless though.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
Well... that might be true, but no real SME is flaunting his certs. That they got them when they were juniors and later made it to SME level is very different from the cert showing that they are SMEs.
You never see any expert that didn't go to middle school. But no expert in any field is proud of having been to middle school.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
There are a few exceptions, right now security still uses certs a tiny bit as a minimum bar, but most $300K+ security experts I guarantee don't have certs. It's still only up to the mid-range.
I think it is bad advice to tell people not to do certifications because people making $300k+ don't have certs. You don't get to that point anymore, generally, through experience alone, unless you are a <1%er who gets lucky with a lot of things and is able to steer perfectly through life (such as yourself).
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@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Microsoft certs are the ones most famous for being worthless though.
To the point where for a solid decade they had become a mark of shame. Not like that now, but their reputation is still pretty bad.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Yes, exactly. But nowhere did you mention "telling others that you got the cert" or "feeling like the cert, rather than the knowledge, is actually useful." That's the difference. Sure you got the cert, so did I. But we know that it's our skills, not our cert, that has value. And a hiring manager who doesn't know that is a buffoon who isn't qualified to hire an intern.
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@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Microsoft certs are the ones most famous for being worthless though.
Not for me, definitely not for me. Without them, I'd not have gotten as far, that is for sure.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
There are a few exceptions, right now security still uses certs a tiny bit as a minimum bar, but most $300K+ security experts I guarantee don't have certs. It's still only up to the mid-range.
I think it is bad advice to tell people not to do certifications because people making $300k+ don't have certs.
Except no one gave that advice. The advice is... don't think of certs and showing any value because they don't.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Yes, exactly. But nowhere did you mention "telling others that you got the cert" or "feeling like the cert, rather than the knowledge, is actually useful." That's the difference. Sure you got the cert, so did I. But we know that it's our skills, not our cert, that has value. And a hiring manager who doesn't know that is a buffoon who isn't qualified to hire an intern.
Oh, i see your point now. I missed that.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
You don't get to that point anymore, generally, through experience alone, unless you are a <1%er who gets lucky with a lot of things and is able to steer perfectly through life (such as yourself).
This isn't true. Getting there is way easier now, not harder. The world used to be so heavily focused on paper (uni, certs) but now with the age of the Internet we've really moved into a world of "results" that never existed before.
Everyone likes to say that we used to have it easy and that now it's hard. That's why everyone (Boomers, Gen X, Gen Z) all find Millenials to be annoying because they always act like it is so hard for them when, if you actually look at how people got into fields, they probably have it the easiest. They had all the same options as before, plus more. It was Boomers and Gen X who got screwed and actually had to go to uni to get access to computers and languages and knowledge. Gen Y could just Google it and teach themselves, for free, from a young age.
It's not the 1% of the lucky that get by like this. Trust me, anyone putting in the kind of effort that every good hiring manager looks for is going to excel and excel big time. That absolutely no one bothers is a totally different problem.
Find someone who actually took learning and skills seriously and didn't become wildly successful. That's your <1%. Certs or not, uni or not.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Microsoft certs are the ones most famous for being worthless though.
Not for me, definitely not for me. Without them, I'd not have gotten as far, that is for sure.
For me they did literally nothing. Never had a job care in the least, and only did one or two jobs before I removed them from the resume. I got a few interviews because of them, but never got or took those jobs.
I did end up in a few scams because of them. Certs definitely make you a key target for more scam jobs.
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I also like to use certification paths as like a syllabus to learn technologies I'm very interested in. Like a way to help steer my career in the direction I want to take it. That has been working out well lately.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Dashrender said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
@scottalanmiller said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
SME means you are the expert. Needing a cert means you are struggling to show basic competence. Those are the opposite ends of the spectrum.
I see SME's in the Microsoft spaces with backing certs all over. In fact, I don't see any Microsoft SME's that are not obtaining the relevant Microsoft certs.
If I work with something, and I've very good at it, I will go get the cert... first, it's easy, second, it's usually free, third, it shows on paper you know enough to pass the cert, which if you have taken the exam, would know it's saying a lot... i have seen first hand! It's great to see how you are doing by taking the certs.
Microsoft certs are the ones most famous for being worthless though.
Not for me, definitely not for me. Without them, I'd not have gotten as far, that is for sure.
The problem here, for you AND for me, is that we will never know how far we'd have gotten without them.
Had I kept them on my resume, would I have gotten offers that I did not otherwise? I don't think so, but I can't tell you for certain. That would be impossible.
In your case, you don't know how far you'd have gotten if you would have spent more time learning other skills or not worrying about the useless bits of the certs and instead applied yourself to learning something more useful or just looking harder for a job... the cost of lost opportunity. Yes, the opportunities that you actually got were because of the certs that you actually had. But you'll never know which jobs you missed out on because of them.
Whatever jobs / careers we end up with are always the result of whatever choices we made. But we can never know how far we'd have gone if we had done something differently. But I can tell you that people with and without certs both get to the top of the game. Certs can help, but they can also do nothing.
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@Obsolesce said in Why IT certifications are worth more than you think...:
I also like to use certification paths as like a syllabus to learn technologies I'm very interested in. Like a way to help steer my career in the direction I want to take it. That has been working out well lately.
I agree, and I talk about this a lot. I think certs are an excellent way to know what is good to study. So much so, that I recommend nearly everyone do the cert paths, but only most people to actually get the certs. I regularly recommend doing all of the learning for a cert but not bothering to get the cert itself.
