Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10
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@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
so we can just drop it... We are simply disagreeing on the legal standing, the end result is the same. At least until there is a court case.
You can't just make something up that has nothing to back it, claim that Microsoft's own license isn't valid, and tell people to drop it. We provided really solid legal evidence. You just said "drop it". Why not provide a reason for feeling that the info from the EULA is wrong?
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@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
But just because MS put a process in place for this purpose, then never removed it, doesn't mean that after a clearly stated deadline that using that method is legal.
Now you could argue in a court that - judge, come on now.. they left it open... what are we supposed to think? they left it open so it must be OK... and to that I say - screw you buddy - NOPE.Yup, but we didn't state this. So why are you mentioning it? This is the same "change what we say because you don't have a reason for why we are wrong" that's been being used previously. No one claimed this, repeating it to make it look like someone said it is a logical fallacy technique used for misdirection. It's not going to fly.
If you believed that you were correct, we'd expect that you would either provide documentation to support it in the form of the license document from MS (that's the sole paperwork that matters) or you'd provide a logical refute for our logic. Lacking either of those, it just sounds like you are yelling to yell and not actually willing to discuss the matter at hand.
What I don't understand is, why everyone is so religiously tied to the belief that MS is going to ban something that makes no business sense for them to ban, and isn't in anyone's interest. MS doesn't want it banned, you don't want it banned, MS hasn't banned it in any license... and yet why are people arguing that it is? What's driving this behaviour?
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@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
We are simply disagreeing on the legal standing, the end result is the same.
Actually no, that's not where we are. Some of us are talking about what the license says and literally no one has provided a refute to that. There has been discussion about other things, but no one has refuted what the license says.
All we are getting is people saying "I don't care what Microsoft's license says, you can't do that" essentially. So on one side, we are showing that legally MS says we can. On the other hand is "I don't care what it says." So the disagreement isn't over the legal standing, but over whether MS gets to allow this or not.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Well, now we are at an odd situation - typically I would say - it requires buying a new license, but well - that's clearly off the table... MS has made upgrading because XYZ excuse still possible for free, even if it is a total gray area legally (and as far as I know, there are no court cases about people taking 'free' windows 10 upgrades after MS's announced end to the program there is no basis in my mind to claim anything but a gray situation
Program was not ended. One program was ended, but not others. The upgrade is still publicly free both legally and technically. There is no gray, stopping one upgrade path has nothing to do with others.
What path do you consider still open? Only paths I was aware of are:
- free until some date in 2016
- if you use accessibility features, free until some date in 2018
Those were two paths. Currently it appears that at least a third path is still open. Those were simply the advertised paths which they needed so that they could then close them to make it appear that there was pressure. But we definitely found a third path that doesn't require either of those. As expected from the beginning.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@DustinB3403 said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@Dashrender said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Well, now we are at an odd situation - typically I would say - it requires buying a new license, but well - that's clearly off the table... MS has made upgrading because XYZ excuse still possible for free, even if it is a total gray area legally (and as far as I know, there are no court cases about people taking 'free' windows 10 upgrades after MS's announced end to the program there is no basis in my mind to claim anything but a gray situation
Program was not ended. One program was ended, but not others. The upgrade is still publicly free both legally and technically. There is no gray, stopping one upgrade path has nothing to do with others.
What path do you consider still open? Only paths I was aware of are:
- free until some date in 2016
- if you use accessibility features, free until some date in 2018
Windows 10 Media Creation tool.
You can download it this moment, plug in the bootable disk to any Windows 7, 8 or 8.1 system and upgrade to Windows 10 at no cost.
just because you can does not make it legal.
No, just because you can does not. It is because the license that comes with that states that it is okay is what makes it legal. Same as with any software. Once legally obtained and legally licensed, it's legal.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
I know that some of our Windows 7 machines have, in the last few months, popped up the Windows 10 upgrade automatically, from MS. So I know for a fact that the upgrade is legal. But finding paperwork on it is the hard part. But the OS itself has listed Windows 10 as the "patch".
It would be interesting to know if that 'patch' would actually apply.
What I've seen (only posted on websites, not on my own), is that Windows 7 is prompting people to update because Win 7 is nearing EOL, nothing about getting a free upgrade. Not even sure it's actually giving them a way to upgrade.
It has, yes. You click it and it tries to upgrade. It fails, of course, but so do normal Windows 10 1809 patches to 1903. So it behaves the same as normal Windows 10 and the MCT, which is the standard "how to patch Windows 10" answer already, works identically with it as it does with later Windows 10.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Unless someone provides "in path" documentation that would supersede this, here is the section that makes the Windows 7 to Windows 10 upgrade fully legal (in conjunction with the MCT acquisition, the key verification, activation, etc. all being approved by MS)...
"Installation and Use Rights.
a. License. The software is licensed, not sold. Under this agreement, we grant you the right to install and run one instance of the software on your device (the licensed device), for use by one person at a time, so long as you comply with all the terms of this agreement. Updating or upgrading from non-genuine software with software from Microsoft or authorized sources does not make your original version or the updated/upgraded version genuine, and in that situation, you do not have a license to use the softwa"
Microsoft provides the license for use here. And stipulates how you could have violated it. Once you accept the EULA, and haven't tricked MS, they've legally agreed to its use. Seems really clear. And not just clear in general, but they even state that non-genuine keys that would trick it into accepting the install aren't valid, implying that genuine ones are.
What about that makes the upgrade legal? what words specifically?
It's all of the pieces together. But it is these pieces...
- The installation is obtained legally, directly from MS. There is no chance for a third party mistake. MS provides the Windows 10 upgrade.
- Once installed MS provides this license. It is not a trial license or a provisional license. The software is obtained legally, and is licensed legally. There isn't any further licensing requested. The EULA simply states that the license and key be valid and genuine, which we've been clear must be true in all cases.
- There is an implication that the activation must be done successfully, and it does either automatically or by calling it (auto in all cases I've seen, but you can call in if that fails.)
Microsoft lists the rules that you have to comply with, and the situation we describe complies with all of them. MS grants a use license when complying with the rules. It's that simple. Same as with all software, from any vendor. Once they provide you with the software and a license to use it and both parties agree, that's it.
The license you are reading here isn't some random description, this is the license that they bundle and they describe when it takes effect. Nothing in it suggests that it isn't valid or just a sample license for when you do something further. It's fully licensed once installed (and the activation just assists you in verifying that you didn't get something wrong like using too old of a version.) The MCT also verifies the install before starting, for a second layer of automated protection from mistakes or misunderstandings.
The EULA is clear that this is available for "upgrade" scenarios. And those scenarios are exclusively Windows 7, 8, and 8.1. Those are the only OS situations where the license has a role. Older versions cannot run the MCT and can't be covered (they are exempted due to the "workaround" clause.) And nothing newer applies as "upgrades" don't exist.
The entire section of the EULA exists just for this one use case.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@bnrstnr said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
. Updating or upgrading from non-genuine software with software from Microsoft or authorized sources does not make your original version or the updated/upgraded version genuine, and in that situation, you do not have a license to use the softwa"
I believe you're misinterpreting... I read this as if you're updating or upgrading non-genuine software WITH SOFTWARE FROM MICROSOFT (read MCT), you're not doing it right... You need a valid license to use MCT. Period.
Right - which if all you have is a Windows 7 licenses - means you don't have a valid license to use to install said software.
Why would you think that? Since the license is valid, and you are an as designed and stated purposed of the MCT, you are going to have to provide some really strong documentation to show that Microsoft's own licenses aren't valid. Since the MCT is built to be used to upgrade Windows 7 (the MCT says this, so does Windows 7 in some cases), and the acquisition of the MCT has nothing that states otherwise, and the resulting license states that this is okay.... why do you claim that the consistent licensing information from MS, and their automation verification, are all wrong? That makes no sense, logically or legally. Legally it seems clear as can be, logically, the legal situation is the only one that really would make sense.
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@WrCombs said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
Stepped away for a couple hours to do some on site support calls and Im so far behind I dont know if I'll be catching up on this thread. -
LOLSorry, didn't mean to leave this message on the second thread. This should have stayed back on the original.
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@DustinB3403 said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@WrCombs said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Stepped away for a couple hours to do some on site support calls and Im so far behind I dont know if I'll be catching up on this thread. -
LOLDon't worry, the last ~200 posts are all about how you can still get Windows 10 for free, if you are properly licensed.
It's a great convo, though, because it digs into every possible objection to the MS upgrade licensing and I feel extremely confident now that the licensing is clear that you can upgrade. It's nice to have each of the pieces so well documented. Because this might change in the future and when we go back it's nice to see what was in the licenses at the time that it was done.
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@Dashrender said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
@bnrstnr said in Started as Win 7 Issue.. Now Job Searching?:
Here's another thing that clearly states you must have a valid Windows 10 license to use the MCT
Yes, and Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 qualify as licenses for that. Windows 10 is just Windows rebranded, it's not a separate product. Those are, and always have been valid licenses.
how do you come to that conclusion?
Besides Microsoft's own documentation? I mean... I'm unclear where you are wondering that it isn't correct. This is just baseline knowledge of the Microsoft product line. Windows NT has been the same product line since 1993, that's never changed. And Microsoft has both paperwork documentation as to what is a valid and genuine Windows NT family license, and what is currently in support, and the MCT has documentation as to which versions are up-gradable using that tool. Each piece of the statement is well known and well documented.
And Microsoft took the time, and I know you think MS being queried and verifying assumptions doesn't matter but that doesn't change the legal situation that it does, to verify technically that proper keys from those three specific situations are listed in the EULA and validated by their servers. That's not an accident no matter what smoke someone tries to blow. Specifically allowing Windows 7 is completely different than "accidentally" validating something "believed to be Windows 7". That's why the EULA protects against the other case by making the license only apply when valid and genuine. But when valid and genuine, the activation servers check the right thing and do their job properly.
When you honestly (e.g. not with cracked keys or pirated software) query Microsoft's license and key verification system, it returns that Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 qualify for the upgrade that the MCT granted the EULA for.
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So offline Dash mentioned to me that he didn't believe that the MCT was intended to be used to upgrade Windows 7. But this is easy to prove because the tool itself states that this is part of its use case, the tool was written to not just work for this but to verify that you are on Windows 7 or later before running, runs in all the cases we have listed, and has official documentation like this from MS that describe it as one of the key upgrade methods: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/windows-7-to-windows-10-upgrade-manual
So that clears up one piece of misunderstanding, that it was believed that the MCT itself was a workaround and somehow being "tricked" into doing an unintended install. The MCT is supposed to work this way, and that's the root of why this process works. Properly obtained media.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
So offline Dash mentioned to me that he didn't believe that the MCT was intended to be used to upgrade Windows 7. But this is easy to prove because the tool itself states that this is part of its use case, the tool was written to not just work for this but to verify that you are on Windows 7 or later before running, runs in all the cases we have listed, and has official documentation like this from MS that describe it as one of the key upgrade methods: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise/windows-7-to-windows-10-upgrade-manual
So that clears up one piece of misunderstanding, that it was believed that the MCT itself was a workaround and somehow being "tricked" into doing an unintended install. The MCT is supposed to work this way, and that's the root of why this process works. Properly obtained media.
How is this the rationale, we've been over this numerous times over this topic and numerous other topics.
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@DustinB3403 well the theory was that we were getting the MCT to work but not as intended, making it a workaround the the EULA invalid. But since the MCT is being used properly, the EULA is in force.
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@DustinB3403 well the theory was that we were getting the MCT to work but not as intended, making it a workaround the the EULA invalid. But since the MCT is being used properly, the EULA is in force.
Theory of the tinfoil hat variety
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@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
The MCT also verifies the install before starting, for a second layer of automated protection from mistakes or misunderstandings.
This is why you should not use the MCT on one PC, and then take the resulting ISO/USB media and install it on all of your other PCs. It is important that the MCT run on the PC you are upgrading; to make sure you pass all the pre-requisites it is capable of verifying.
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@JasGot said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
@scottalanmiller said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
The MCT also verifies the install before starting, for a second layer of automated protection from mistakes or misunderstandings.
This is why you should not use the MCT on one PC, and then take the resulting ISO/USB media and install it on all of your other PCs. It is important that the MCT run on the PC you are upgrading; to make sure you pass all the pre-requisites it is capable of verifying.
that's correct. Plus the license you get is just for one machine. That's a great point that I always think about but always forget to mention. The MCT download process itself provides the new license. It's for one machine. MS issues a new license each time you download.
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FFS, the problem with this thread, was @DustinB3403 as typical, spewing irrelevant bullshit.
Had he not kept reinforcing how stupid he is by posting his entire illegal setup, fully half the thread would not have happened.
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@JaredBusch said in Can Windows 7 Still Upgrade to Windows 10:
FFS, the problem with this thread, was @DustinB3403 as typical, spewing irrelevant bullshit.
Had he not kept reinforcing how stupid he is by posting his entire illegal setup, fully half the thread would not have happened.
That was an example of what wouldn't be valid, not a description of his own setup. It was a hypothetical to show people what would not work, but people picked it up and ran with it as if the invalid example of "obviously this wouldn't work" but people kept being confused and thinking that it should work or something weird.
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SW actually had a similar discussion some time ago and Chris (formerly Chris from MS -- who was always extremely helpful in answering licensing questions) replied in no uncertain terms that this is not a valid method of receiving a LEGAL license of Windows 10. There are also several comments noting the part in Microsoft's EULA that essentially states that "a successful activation in no way denotes legal entitlement". While Chris is no longer an employee, he's the closest word we have to a statement from Microsoft directly.
Having been a witness to a Microsoft LLC audit that I mentioned previously (where upgrades of Windows 7 PCs without 10 entitlement in MSDM/Bios/whatever performed after this date were listed as "unlicensed" (EDIT: I do not know the outcome of this, only that these were initially listed as the above but may have later been amended further into the audit process), with the careful wording around the EULA, with the blatant statements on their website, and numerous other MVPs and MS insiders stating that this is the case, I choose to err on the side of legality/compliance when we're possibly placing a client at risk.
Personal PC? Go ahead, I don't care.
Business PC? Buy a license and know you're compliant.
