Concerns with BtrFS and ReFS
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@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
General risk with hypervisor level backups. This is a huge reason for either local file based or what I call devops backups. They are at a higher level, so there is way more opportunity for this.
But if the system was okay when you took the VMware snap, it should have been okay when you restored it. Regardless of corruption.
Yeah, exactly.... and this is why Snapshots are not a backup!
Snapshot = hypervisor backup. When people say that they want hypervisor level backups, that's code for "snapshot based backup". The snapshots are not the backup all by themselves, but they are the mechanism for the backup and any hypervisor backup system like Veeam or Unitrends or whatever would be affected by this just the same.
So would, in theory, agent based snapshot backup tools like StorageCraft.
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@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
I don't know what world you live in, but this is exactly what ReFS is known for. MS has all kinds of warnings about it, even.
The notes on this page don't say anything like you suggest:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/refs/refs-overview
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@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
The Windows world is suffering from the "Cult of ZFS" applied to ReFS. ZFS fails just like anything else, but people often worship it and do crazy things becaue of it. ReFS was created for the purpose of "porting" that behaviour to Windows because people flock to it. ReFS hasn't garnered as much insanity as the ZFS crowd, but it's also not a mature, robust system like ZFS either, nor is it groundbreaking like ZFS was. ReFS is just a ZFS-wanna be without the tooling, reliability and maturity... so the "blind faith" people are much fewer, but they are out there. Right now ReFS isn't nearly as reliable as NTFS, often considered less reliable than people would like (although greatly improved and not a problem today). But unlike NTFS where people expect risk and plan for it, ReFS plans for no risk and just fails when something actually goes wrong.
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@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
I don't know what world you live in, but this is exactly what ReFS is known for. MS has all kinds of warnings about it, even.
The notes on this page don't say anything like you suggest:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/refs/refs-overview
Obviously MS selling their product isn't a viable reference. They have provided warnings in the past. Like everything MS, there is always at least one team pushing every product blindly.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
The Windows world is suffering from the "Cult of ZFS" applied to ReFS. ZFS fails just like anything else, but people often worship it and do crazy things becaue of it. ReFS was created for the purpose of "porting" that behaviour to Windows because people flock to it. ReFS hasn't garnered as much insanity as the ZFS crowd, but it's also not a mature, robust system like ZFS either, nor is it groundbreaking like ZFS was. ReFS is just a ZFS-wanna be without the tooling, reliability and maturity... so the "blind faith" people are much fewer, but they are out there. Right now ReFS isn't nearly as reliable as NTFS, often considered less reliable than people would like (although greatly improved and not a problem today). But unlike NTFS where people expect risk and plan for it, ReFS plans for no risk and just fails when something actually goes wrong.
ReFS is not ZFS. Don't confuse them. They are not swappable technologies.
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ReFS depends on you having a software RAID mirror of it for its recovery. On its own ReFS' safetey mechanisms are largest missing (same with ZFS.) But this means you are trapped using a software RAID system that itself is often considered to be not production ready (thereby making ReFS not production.)
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@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
Needs to catch up to ReFS
Um...... ReFS is known for lacking key features and being unstable and losing data. It's been ahead of ReFS all this time.
No
The Windows world is suffering from the "Cult of ZFS" applied to ReFS. ZFS fails just like anything else, but people often worship it and do crazy things becaue of it. ReFS was created for the purpose of "porting" that behaviour to Windows because people flock to it. ReFS hasn't garnered as much insanity as the ZFS crowd, but it's also not a mature, robust system like ZFS either, nor is it groundbreaking like ZFS was. ReFS is just a ZFS-wanna be without the tooling, reliability and maturity... so the "blind faith" people are much fewer, but they are out there. Right now ReFS isn't nearly as reliable as NTFS, often considered less reliable than people would like (although greatly improved and not a problem today). But unlike NTFS where people expect risk and plan for it, ReFS plans for no risk and just fails when something actually goes wrong.
ReFS is not ZFS. Don't confuse them. They are not swappable technologies.
I didn't, read what I wrote. ReFS is an attempt by MS to implement the ZFS-style FS for Windows to garner the same type of user base.
They are not swappable, ReFS is in no way actually competitive with ZFS.
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@KOOLER on ReFS performance issues... https://www.starwindsoftware.com/blog/log-structured-file-systems-microsoft-refs-v2-investigation-part-1
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I wouldn't call fringe cases the norm. You have those with anything and everything.
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@Obsolesce said in KVM and Back Ups:
I wouldn't call fringe cases the norm. You have those with anything and everything.
That's good, I didn't and wouldn't call them the norm, either. The issues with ReFS is that it is used extremely rarely, and data loss cases are quite high (high enough that MS has recalled it in the past), and recovery tools are rare or don't exist (and are definitely not official.)
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Remember, in storage, .01% data loss is too high to even think about calling production. Terms like "norm" have no place, because anything in the 51% range is too low to be usable statistically. All storage items need to be reliable to a point where concepts like "norm" are meaningless. This is what gets people with RAID. A business owner wants six nines of durability, but IT people will often point out that at least 51% of people don't lose data and treat that as similar to 99.9999% but they are mathematically ridiculously far apart.
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Look at the kinds of issues Veeam currently sees with ReFS. These are not the kinds of issues one expects from a mature, reliable filesystem. Third party software can cause issues, but having to avoid AV because the FS can't handle it is pretty flaky behaviour.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
Look at the kinds of issues Veeam currently sees with ReFS. These are not the kinds of issues one expects from a mature, reliable filesystem. Third party software can cause issues, but having to avoid AV because the FS can't handle it is pretty flaky behaviour.
You mean disabling AV isn't a standard practice that everyone should employ?!
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@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@dafyre said in KVM and Back Ups:
In my experience with it, it has often corrupted randomly and to the point that it's own snapshots are no help, nor are VMware Snapshots.
How could it correct VMware snapshots?
I guess it's more that BtrFS doesn't detect the corruption early enough and our VMware snapshot are nothing but snapshots of corrupt data... That's about the only way I can explain it.
When you recovered and did investigation, you determined that the filesystem, not the data on the filesystem, was corrupted? No filesystem can detect the latter. How did you figure out that BtrFS was to "blame", and what did you move to to address the issue? Only ZFS would even offer an alternative.
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@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@KOOLER on ReFS performance issues... https://www.starwindsoftware.com/blog/log-structured-file-systems-microsoft-refs-v2-investigation-part-1
Wow they said Engineers set that up? Obviously not the IT type of Engineer. The whole thing is totally wrong, totally and completely unsupported in just about every way, and in no way supportive of what you tried to prove with it considering the given setup... Ä
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@Obsolesce said in Concerns with BtrFS and ReFS:
@scottalanmiller said in KVM and Back Ups:
@KOOLER on ReFS performance issues... https://www.starwindsoftware.com/blog/log-structured-file-systems-microsoft-refs-v2-investigation-part-1
Wow they said Engineers set that up? Obviously not the IT type of Engineer. The whole thing is totally wrong, totally and completely unsupported in just about every way, and in no way supportive of what you tried to prove with it considering the given setup... Ä
How much special consideration does ReFS need to work? Obviously it can't require Windows Software RAID or it wouldn't be production ready in the slightest. What all special knowledge must people have to use a filesystem? And why does ReFS need to much but not NTFS? Just needing lots of special knowledge to use a FS seems like admission that it has a lot of problems.
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@Obsolesce said in Concerns with BtrFS and ReFS:
Wow they said Engineers set that up? Obviously not the IT type of Engineer.
MS Storage / Kernel MVP.
