Windows 10 vs Windows 7
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I like both when they are running has a VM guest on my Fedora Workstation.:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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As said, there is not much of a choice for new installs. You're either running Windows 10 or you're not running Windows.
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I think there are pros and cons to each.
Patching has degraded on both, so there isn't a clear distinction on one being more stable when it comes to patching.
There are definitely better/more modern features in 10, but some of the stuff that I use take more clicks to access than it used to. They are hiding things that average people don't use, but I wish there were a setting or mode that would allow me to pick to bring those now hidden features to the foreground.
Windows 10 is faster on the same hardware, in my experience.
Customizing it is kind of a pain for administrators. Using xml files for customizing the start menu, task bar, etc is not super reliable.
In 1703 (maybe later versions, too), when you have a laptop with its lid closed, the start menu doesn't scale and is super tiny and cut off in certain sections. Pretty much unusable. -
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@EddieJennings said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@WrCombs said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
everyone here hates Windows 10 like the plague, but I love it. To me, It's simple and easy to use.
I don't hate it, but the longer I've been a Windows user, I've become more interested in other options.
"The more you use Windows, the more you want to stop using Windows."
I dual booted Xubuntu recently, and wanted to full switch in light of new STEAM proton API, which is amazing it makes all games on steam for windows magically work on Linux, just make sure to download and choose latest BETA proton api.
The bad news, while the API works, and fixes the game. Most modern games come with proprietary anti-cheat engine, and that simply does not allow the game to play on multiplayer.
So I either need to change my games . or do Graphic card pass through which is too much of hassle even for tinkerer like me. However having said that I should stop wasting my time with games...
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
That said, if your users really prefer Windows 7, likely this is interface related.
Consider getting a replacement shell for Windows 10 that makes it look like 7. Often that is all that they mean.
Or, if you have the flexibility, check out either Fedora with Cinnamon, or Mint Cinnamon for a Windows 7 like experience, but modern.
Classic Shell
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@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
We're flipping all of our clients over to Windows 10. It's a lot easier to maintain patch wise though the recent move to split-out .NET gives us a bit more complexity.
Whether Win7 or Win10 it's important to disable SMBv1. The following is PowerShell:
# Disable on Windows 10 Disable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName smb1protocol -Restart # Check Get-WindowsOptionalFeature –Online –FeatureName SMB1Protocol # Check and Disable on Windows 7 Get-Item HKLM:\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\Parameters | ForEach-Object {Get-ItemProperty $_.pspath} # Disable SMBv1 on Windows 7 Set-ItemProperty -Path "HKLM:\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\Parameters" SMB1 -Type DWORD -Value 0 –Force Restart-Computer # Disable on Windows Server 2012 RTM # Check Get-SmbServerConfiguration | Select EnableSMB1Protocol # Disable Set-SmbServerConfiguration -EnableSMB1Protocol $false -Confirm:$FalseWhat do you mean split out .NET ?
You can install latest version of .NET on both systems, and the only split .net done was in 4.0 they made one full and one for client, then they realized it us mistake. and never did it again.
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@Emad-R said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
We're flipping all of our clients over to Windows 10. It's a lot easier to maintain patch wise though the recent move to split-out .NET gives us a bit more complexity.
Whether Win7 or Win10 it's important to disable SMBv1. The following is PowerShell:
# Disable on Windows 10 Disable-WindowsOptionalFeature -Online -FeatureName smb1protocol -Restart # Check Get-WindowsOptionalFeature –Online –FeatureName SMB1Protocol # Check and Disable on Windows 7 Get-Item HKLM:\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\Parameters | ForEach-Object {Get-ItemProperty $_.pspath} # Disable SMBv1 on Windows 7 Set-ItemProperty -Path "HKLM:\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\Parameters" SMB1 -Type DWORD -Value 0 –Force Restart-Computer # Disable on Windows Server 2012 RTM # Check Get-SmbServerConfiguration | Select EnableSMB1Protocol # Disable Set-SmbServerConfiguration -EnableSMB1Protocol $false -Confirm:$FalseWhat do you mean split out .NET ?
You can install latest version of .NET on both systems, and the only split .net done was in 4.0 they made one full and one for client, then they realized it us mistake. and never did it again.
Windows 10 Update structure:
1: Servicing Stack Updates (Requires an acknowledgement prior to entry)
2: Latest Cumulative Update
3: Latest .NET Update for Windows 10 (I've not found a URL for this one yet)Meaning, .NET will not be delivered in the LCU anymore.
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Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
From what I understand the throttling is being pulled off now.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
Also speaking of updates.
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@JaredBusch said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
Also speaking of updates.
FFS
Basically they just stated outright... Windows 10 isn't ready for production use. Which we knew, but they've made it official.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@JaredBusch said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
Also speaking of updates.
FFS
Basically they just stated outright... Windows 10 isn't ready for production use. Which we knew, but they've made it official.
Yeah, there was something on theregister or slashdot in the past couple of weeks about this. Makes me VERY happy that a) We're running WSUS at work to control this garbage and b) that I'm not the WSUS admin
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@JaredBusch said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Speaking of Windows Updates. I literally just found my first Windows 10 machine that successfully detected 1809 and attempted to update. No word yet if it will be successful. But this is the VERY FIRST time that I've not had to use the media creation tool to get it to recognize that 1809 exists.
Also speaking of updates.
Hype, FUD, click-bait, whatever.
Jiminy Cricket folks sure love to blow their horns.
We've been on 1803 and our clients have and our contractor's clients have pretty much since it was released.
We've been deploying all new systems with 1809 patched and up to date because it just works.
I find that the primary problem with patching is a lack of regression testing by the folks doing the patching. For those that are, see www.patchmanagement.org and join the lists.
Microsoft has been "failing" at QA for patching for freaking years now. There's just too complex an ecosystem for them to cover all of the bases anyway so the idea that everyone's setup can be patched immediately is befuddling at best and suicidal at worst.
The reality is that we need to regression test and litmus test those patches to make sure they work for our systems. That's our responsibility not theirs.
Caveat: While the above is definitely a very not-so-humble opinion, Microsoft should have their collective defecation together at least for their own hardware line. But then again, folks install all sorts of stuff on their machines that seemingly take them off-spec so the above applies yet again.
The only patching issues we've had to date on the Windows 10 platform have been with users that took their machines out of deployment spec by installing whatever. Our in-spec Win10 deployments have been quite stable patch wise.
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@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
The reality is that we need to regression test and litmus test those patches to make sure they work for our systems. That's our responsibility not theirs.
For third party apps, yes. For the OS itself, no. No other OS puts OS testing on the end users. This just reinforces the thought that it's not production ready. Especially for the SMB space. Especially when test devices aren't licensed for free. Making things unstable means more sales, means less production ready.
What you are describing is a "lower bar" for Windows than for its competitors. You are asking the end users to accept a lesser product when considering Windows. Things we wouldn't find acceptable if it were macOS or Ubuntu. But when it's Windows, we are supposed to feel it is okay.
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@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
Caveat: While the above is definitely a very not-so-humble opinion, Microsoft should have their collective defecation together at least for their own hardware line.
To their credit, they seem to fix their own stuff last and not use having their own hardware as a way to screw their hardware competitors. They definitely treat Surface users as the red headed stepchildren instead of treating them as the favoured children. Which is how it needs to be to not alienate everyone else.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
The reality is that we need to regression test and litmus test those patches to make sure they work for our systems. That's our responsibility not theirs.
For third party apps, yes. For the OS itself, no. No other OS puts OS testing on the end users. This just reinforces the thought that it's not production ready. Especially for the SMB space. Especially when test devices aren't licensed for free. Making things unstable means more sales, means less production ready.
What you are describing is a "lower bar" for Windows than for its competitors. You are asking the end users to accept a lesser product when considering Windows. Things we wouldn't find acceptable if it were macOS or Ubuntu. But when it's Windows, we are supposed to feel it is okay.
macOS. Yeah, right. We've had our fair share of problems on that platform as well as the iOS too.
I'm not sure I've ever met an admin that would trust an OS update/upgrade from any vendor out of the box without testing it at all ... just blindly install everything that comes their way. <-- @scottalanmiller Is that what's being claimed here?
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@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
I'm not sure I've ever met an admin that would trust an OS update/upgrade from any vendor out of the box without testing it at all ... just blindly install everything that comes their way. <-- @scottalanmiller Is that what's being claimed here?
Yes, that's how nearly all SMB works. In the real world, the vast majority of companies are either unwilling or unable to pay for testing gear and licenses. And of the few that do, most don't have reliable testing mechanisms. And even of those, it doesn't always work because things still vary that can't be accounted for, especially when talking about desktops.
Everyone knows that testing is a great idea. But it's crazy to think that SMBs can actually do it. Thankfully, with things like Fedora, there isn't a fear around it, that's unique to the Windows space. Is it know that it could be an issue, sure. But it's also known to be a ridiculously minor concern, something that is more theoretical than real. It is exclusive to the Windows world that testing is so important, and also unique that it is so hard and costly.
But given real world factors, it's totally unrealistic to expect small companies to test updates. How do you perceive that working. Even having uniform environments is incredibly rare. Given that most companies can't get the basics covered in their budgets, budgeting a large amount for testing that does almost nothing for them doesn't make good IT sense.
Remember that the cost of testing is very high for small environments. In the enterprise, doing basic testing for 50,000 users has a trivial per user cost. In a five person environment, the testing needs are about the same, but the cost per user is literally 10,000 times higher.
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@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
... just blindly install everything that comes their way. <-- @scottalanmiller Is that what's being claimed here?
SMBs basically have two choices. The good one... trust that your vendor knows what they are doing and install their patches. This works in every production ready ecosystem 99.99% of the time. And until recently, worked with Windows.
The other choice is to avoid updates. As testing is too costly (and in many environments, too hard), and they have a fear of their platform vendor's competence, they decide to simply not patch. This is unfortunately what seems to be the more common option.
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Now, of course, in the MSP space, the resources exist to do testing. But....
Imagine MSPs asking customers to provide testing hardware, licensing, and to pay for IT labour to do testing. The average customer will simply laugh and say "no". End of story. Some customers will actually see it as a blatant money grab to get billable hours. All while adding some types of risk from delaying patches or risking missing them. Testing brings its own risks, even when well funded and with good processes.
Are there MSP customers willing to do this? Yes. Are they common? Not at all. Every MSP wants them, because those are the customers that pay the best. But they are extremely rare. And in most cases, the customers who refuse testing are probably doing the right thing. Run the numbers, you have to have good backups and recovery processes. The risks of bad updates are generally really small. Inconvenient, but small.
Impacts from bad patches are normally annoying but trivial. Wasting time rolling back, putting up with glitches, or worst case, re-installing. Not good, but not actually a big deal. COnsidering even those cases are rare, the cost of testing typically is larger than the risk it is protecting against.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
@PhlipElder said in Windows 10 vs Windows 7:
I'm not sure I've ever met an admin that would trust an OS update/upgrade from any vendor out of the box without testing it at all ... just blindly install everything that comes their way. <-- @scottalanmiller Is that what's being claimed here?
Yes, that's how nearly all SMB works. In the real world, the vast majority of companies are either unwilling or unable to pay for testing gear and licenses. And of the few that do, most don't have reliable testing mechanisms. And even of those, it doesn't always work because things still vary that can't be accounted for, especially when talking about desktops.
Everyone knows that testing is a great idea. But it's crazy to think that SMBs can actually do it. Thankfully, with things like Fedora, there isn't a fear around it, that's unique to the Windows space. Is it know that it could be an issue, sure. But it's also known to be a ridiculously minor concern, something that is more theoretical than real. It is exclusive to the Windows world that testing is so important, and also unique that it is so hard and costly.
But given real world factors, it's totally unrealistic to expect small companies to test updates. How do you perceive that working. Even having uniform environments is incredibly rare. Given that most companies can't get the basics covered in their budgets, budgeting a large amount for testing that does almost nothing for them doesn't make good IT sense.
Remember that the cost of testing is very high for small environments. In the enterprise, doing basic testing for 50,000 users has a trivial per user cost. In a five person environment, the testing needs are about the same, but the cost per user is literally 10,000 times higher.
Our SMB clients have been paying us to regression test and deploy patches for years. That's what we're here for. But then, we're the exception to the rule and thus the "All SMB belongs in the cloud" attitude at Microsoft.
As far as avoiding patches that's been going on since I can remember with the old rule of thumb being no OS upgrade/changes until SP1 comes down the pipe. So, nothing has changed there on most any platform.
