I have to change cloud drive service yet again
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
Only IF you know the folder. And if you move things, then you don't. Can't have it both ways. If you want to move it, folders don't work. If you don't need to move it, you don't need the folders.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@coliver said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
One issue with the app only access - what happens when you change apps? i.e. switching from using Adobe Acrobat to PDF Element? Is it now up to the OS to know what files belong to what app? or is there simply a single folderless dumping ground for all files?
All modern OSes already handle that. It's a long ago solved problem.
By all modern, I assume you mean Chrome OS/android and iOS? but not windows?
I'm not following? Windows can manage file types in this fashion as well. Must have missed something.
Windows doesn't handle anything. The files are just where they are. If you launch Adobe reader - it doesn't show you all PDFs on a system, or even search for them all - at min you'd have to choose the root of the drive you think your file is on, then search for your title, etc. some apps even will search inside the files for text. but without the prestep of choosing the root of that drive, if you're in some subfolder, you could easily miss a file.
That's Adobe's fault for not leveraging the OS. The OS certainly does it.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
You could say the same thing about putting files in folders. So if people are lazy and don't put them in a logical spot, folders make this far worse than just missing tags.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
I feel like this is a 100% human problem, and no matter what we do with the OS, its still human judgment that is the cause of the problems.
Right. Humans have to be involved still. Imagine saying you want to retrieve a box in your house but can't remember where you put it, or how it is labeled, or what it looks like.
Even without computers, it's a problem.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Would maybe still know when it was taken, where it was taken, etc.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Would maybe still know when it was taken, where it was taken, etc.
true.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
Well - that would be up to the departments. You could pre create dozens of tags, etc... if the system is like ML here- as you type win - it will show you a list of all existing tags that have win in it.
Yes - getting people to use TAGs is the hardest part. Sharepoint for example, so I'm told, can force this on users.
Like any human workflow, you make it part of their job and enforce with HR. That's how we got computers to be used how they are today.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Not sure you need to leave this to the OS - but I get your point. And just look at google photos - it does a pretty awesome job or knowing what a bird vs a dog is.
As for auto tagging - some apps can and do have that - I have no personal experience, I just know that some can do it.
But regarding making a user 'tag correctly' well they aren't tagging or naming correctly today. Creating a list for them to choose from, plus allowing them to make their own hopefully only makes things better for them, I can't see how it would be worse than what they have today.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Not sure you need to leave this to the OS - but I get your point. And just look at google photos - it does a pretty awesome job or knowing what a bird vs a dog is.
As for auto tagging - some apps can and do have that - I have no personal experience, I just know that some can do it.
But regarding making a user 'tag correctly' well they aren't tagging or naming correctly today. Creating a list for them to choose from, plus allowing them to make their own hopefully only makes things better for them, I can't see how it would be worse than what they have today.
I'm not saying it would be worse, I'm saying you can't fundamentally make it better via programming.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
simply searching titles are often useless, because we don't always remember the actual title we give something. etc etc.
If titles (and presumable folder titles) don't let you find something, how does moving files around solve any problems?
folders do solve it, because it narrows you from 1000's of files to maybe 100. then you just read through the list.
Again - tags would really solve this much better, because you can often have way more than just one tag, making searching significantly better.
you still have the problem of having meaningful tags. where do these come from and who is responsible for maintaining them? most people are lazy and wouldn't use tags to the level of their capability. plus, whats to say that the tag I give a file is what you would use for searching for that file?
Well - that would be up to the departments. You could pre create dozens of tags, etc... if the system is like ML here- as you type win - it will show you a list of all existing tags that have win in it.
Yes - getting people to use TAGs is the hardest part. Sharepoint for example, so I'm told, can force this on users.
Like any human workflow, you make it part of their job and enforce with HR. That's how we got computers to be used how they are today.
yes and no - If the people feel that the computer is making things better for them, then they will by into the use much more rapidly.
As for dealing with files - using sharepoint is a HUGE PITA vs a single shared folder on SMB - at best they are equal, but generally, you want more from your SP, so you have to take the time to add tags, etc, and that's where the pain comes in. It takes a huge amount of time before those tags truly become noticeably beneficial in many cases, and until the users notice the improvement, they will push back because of the extra work (adding tags).
It's even worse when the doc storage system doesn't integrate into your app.
Let's take the OP's situation.
They have 11 TB of shared data - everyone needs access to it, and 3 people need mobile offline access to it. Assuming the 3 users sync the data, the apps will look at the sync location - but what do you do for those who don't need offline access? Webdav? I mean it would be great if NC had a client that allowed Office (for example) to connect to NC just like Office connects to OD/ODfB.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Not sure you need to leave this to the OS - but I get your point. And just look at google photos - it does a pretty awesome job or knowing what a bird vs a dog is.
As for auto tagging - some apps can and do have that - I have no personal experience, I just know that some can do it.
But regarding making a user 'tag correctly' well they aren't tagging or naming correctly today. Creating a list for them to choose from, plus allowing them to make their own hopefully only makes things better for them, I can't see how it would be worse than what they have today.
I'm not saying it would be worse, I'm saying you can't fundamentally make it better via programming.
I guess I disagree with that - it's better via programming because it can auto fill some tags based on rules you setup. How is that not better? It might not be perfect, but I assume it must be better, even if only by the tiniest bit. Again at absolutely worse - it would be the same.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Not sure you need to leave this to the OS - but I get your point. And just look at google photos - it does a pretty awesome job or knowing what a bird vs a dog is.
As for auto tagging - some apps can and do have that - I have no personal experience, I just know that some can do it.
But regarding making a user 'tag correctly' well they aren't tagging or naming correctly today. Creating a list for them to choose from, plus allowing them to make their own hopefully only makes things better for them, I can't see how it would be worse than what they have today.
I'm not saying it would be worse, I'm saying you can't fundamentally make it better via programming.
I guess I disagree with that - it's better via programming because it can auto fill some tags based on rules you setup. How is that not better? It might not be perfect, but I assume it must be better, even if only by the tiniest bit. Again at absolutely worse - it would be the same.
That's why I used the word fundamental. It wouldn't be an innovation, just an improvement of existing tools or methods, and those existing tools and methods are still subject to human error and indifference.
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@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Donahue said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Now if the OS had the ability for tags to be created automatically based on say the words in a document, then you might start down a better path. But let's say that your data was images. This cannot be done outside of things like neural networks, and even then only to a point.
Not sure you need to leave this to the OS - but I get your point. And just look at google photos - it does a pretty awesome job or knowing what a bird vs a dog is.
As for auto tagging - some apps can and do have that - I have no personal experience, I just know that some can do it.
But regarding making a user 'tag correctly' well they aren't tagging or naming correctly today. Creating a list for them to choose from, plus allowing them to make their own hopefully only makes things better for them, I can't see how it would be worse than what they have today.
I'm not saying it would be worse, I'm saying you can't fundamentally make it better via programming.
I guess I disagree with that - it's better via programming because it can auto fill some tags based on rules you setup. How is that not better? It might not be perfect, but I assume it must be better, even if only by the tiniest bit. Again at absolutely worse - it would be the same.
That's why I used the word fundamental. It wouldn't be an innovation, just an improvement of existing tools or methods, and those existing tools and methods are still subject to human error and indifference.
But they would get rid of the problems you're currently experiencing. Time to modernize and just deal with pain - you tell your boss.
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Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems? -
@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
No
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@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems?Yeah I don't get it either
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@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems?Yeah I don't get it either
Well - it would be awesome to get away from folders altogether, and only use tags.. so much more useful, though painful to add to every time you create a document.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems?Yeah I don't get it either
Well - it would be awesome to get away from folders altogether, and only use tags.. so much more useful, though painful to add to every time you create a document.
Not really, no more painful than selecting a folder every time you create a document, which you already have to do. In fact, technically, folders ARE a tag, just a really crappy and limited one. But under the hood, it's a really crufty single tag system in most filesystems. Hard links could be thought of as an insanely cumbersome additional tag system.
Tags only improve things. All positives, no negatives.
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@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems?Yeah I don't get it either
Well - it would be awesome to get away from folders altogether, and only use tags.. so much more useful, though painful to add to every time you create a document.
Not really, no more painful than selecting a folder every time you create a document, which you already have to do. In fact, technically, folders ARE a tag, just a really crappy and limited one. But under the hood, it's a really crufty single tag system in most filesystems. Hard links could be thought of as an insanely cumbersome additional tag system.
Tags only improve things. All positives, no negatives.
I'll disagree in so much as a folder system is likely already created and a user is just using it. Sure the same could be said for many tags - but tags don't lend themselves to easy discovery like folders do. It's a human aspect, not a computer one...
I definitely agree that the folders are a single tag like solution - but when you have a single folder with 10K files in it, it's mind numbing to look at - a way that many people function... I know they need to change, and over time most will, but the interim will be painful.
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@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@scottalanmiller said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@Dashrender said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@wirestyle22 said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
@jmoore said in I have to change cloud drive service yet again:
Do we know why his users are constantly moving files?
I'm of the mind to just never move files.
Open file, edit file, close the file. No problems.
Just don't move the file. Who doesn't understand that this would cause many problems?Yeah I don't get it either
Well - it would be awesome to get away from folders altogether, and only use tags.. so much more useful, though painful to add to every time you create a document.
Not really, no more painful than selecting a folder every time you create a document, which you already have to do. In fact, technically, folders ARE a tag, just a really crappy and limited one. But under the hood, it's a really crufty single tag system in most filesystems. Hard links could be thought of as an insanely cumbersome additional tag system.
Tags only improve things. All positives, no negatives.
I'll disagree in so much as a folder system is likely already created and a user is just using it. Sure the same could be said for many tags - but tags don't lend themselves to easy discovery like folders do. It's a human aspect, not a computer one...
They do, and folders prove that as folders in most filesystems are just tags. If it is easy to do with a folder, it's just as easy to do with a tag. But better, as there are more options to make it even easier.
That people "already know how to do something" doesn't make it easier, nor does that mean that that system couldn't be used as a tagging mechanism.
