Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?
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@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
Right. Technically allowed, another thing my DM ruled on in favor of. You do still only get one reaction, so that means no uncanny dodge etc. There is still a trade-off.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
Right. Technically allowed, another thing my DM ruled on in favor of
It is still only a single extra d6 or four, rarely. Totally not impactful in any meaningful way.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
Right. Technically allowed, another thing my DM ruled on in favor of
It is still only a single extra d6 or four, rarely. Totally not impactful in any meaningful way.
It wouldn't be very rare if we counted mirror image in the way that my DM ruled on it. That's why I don't like it. I have 3d6 on my sneak attack currently. I sort of look at it like a crit. For that turn you get to deal more or less double damage with two sneak attacks.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
Right. Technically allowed, another thing my DM ruled on in favor of
It is still only a single extra d6 or four, rarely. Totally not impactful in any meaningful way.
It wouldn't be very rare if we counted mirror image in the way that my DM ruled on it. That's why I don't like it. I have 3d6 on my sneak attack currently. I sort of look at it like a crit. For that turn you get to deal more or less double damage with two sneak attacks.
um how would it not be rare? you only get 3 images and a worse chance to have it hit the duplicate as you lose them.
Also the spell lasts 10 rounds, and is second level, of which you can only cast 3 a day. Additionally fighters can attack multiple times. You will not keep duplicates long if you are in melee.
Bards are a supporting class not tanks.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
Right. Technically allowed, another thing my DM ruled on in favor of
It is still only a single extra d6 or four, rarely. Totally not impactful in any meaningful way.
It wouldn't be very rare if we counted mirror image in the way that my DM ruled on it. That's why I don't like it. I have 3d6 on my sneak attack currently. I sort of look at it like a crit. For that turn you get to deal more or less double damage with two sneak attacks.
um how would it not be rare? you only get 3 images and a worse chance to have it hit the duplicate as you lose them.
Also the spell lasts 10 rounds, and is second level, of which you can only cast 3 a day. Additionally fighters can attack multiple times. You will not keep duplicates long if you are in melee.
Bards are a supporting class not tanks.
Darkness/Devil's eyes + mirror image and shield. Very unlikely that anyone is going to hit me at my current level at all. So yeah I guess it makes it less likely to even trigger a mirror image.
Disadvantage on the attack. If the attack hits me it has to go through my mirror images. If it makes it through my mirror image I can shield increasing my AC to block the attack potentially. 20 AC w/ shield spell. If it actually gets through all of that and shield won't help me I can uncanny dodge.
I also have two lvl 2 spell slots with my warlock multiclass which I can use to cast wizard spells and vice versa on a short rest. That's 4 lvl 2 spell slots total next level when I get mirror image. I think it totals to 7 if you include the warlock spell slots at max level.
2 from warlock lvl 3 and 5 from arcane trickster lvl 17
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I'm wondering if war caster is worth it for me to maintain darkness or not. I'm leaning on no for the above reasons, but I def could be wrong. Depends on how many things can get around darkness that I encounter, which I can't know in terms of my campaign.
