Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?
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Now, that said, it is not "wrong" to not care about running a business as a business. But people need to admit that it is just a hobby or a game and that the intention isn't to make money.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
See that's where I don't agree - I don't think they don't care, I consider it that they are ignorant - they simply don't know.
I realize that I've been incorrect about ignorant in the past. In this case, I can't believe anyone can be that ignorant as a functional adult, hence my point. It would requiring ignoring basic common sense and adult skills to not understand this, hence why ignorant is wrong because ignorant means uninformed, rather than a state of having ignored. The real issue has to be a state of having ignored obvious knowledge.
This boils down to common knowledge comments - but really, what is common knowledge anymore?
Well this certainly is. If anything is, this is. And it isn't common knowledge, it's common sense. It doesn't require having been told or trained. It's just basic human interactions.
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@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
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If common sense was really deteriorating, we'd expect a massive upswing in three card monte scams. Yet we don't. I don't think that there is the slightest reason to think that people are losing common sense compared to the past. I'm quite confident people are getting smarter, not dumber. We see it everywhere.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
They are convenient, but if you want the best sound, they've always been a no no. I use them when I want something simple and aren't too concerned. But my good equipment is monoblocks and a passive attenuator only.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
... otherwise you'd think even crazy emotional business people would realize that saving money by using an ITSP would be good.
This is assuming that even emotional people are rational when it comes to business, which directly goes against everything else said. The reality is, most business owners in the SMB don't care about making money. They have other, emotional things, that they care about more. Like getting to feel in control or just playing at business without real responsibilities. Making money is actually, quite rarely, the driving factor regardless of what people say. You can see this in.... just about any business that you talk to.
Again, I think this boils down to a lack of education - and I don't mean like college education, but business education.
No, I can't stress this enough, and I have so many times - this isn't about business. This is about basic adulting.
Well, then we will simply disagree - you mentioned that most will be exposed to this by an in home care giver.. being exposed does not make one actually aware of it, or make it part of their being.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
... otherwise you'd think even crazy emotional business people would realize that saving money by using an ITSP would be good.
This is assuming that even emotional people are rational when it comes to business, which directly goes against everything else said. The reality is, most business owners in the SMB don't care about making money. They have other, emotional things, that they care about more. Like getting to feel in control or just playing at business without real responsibilities. Making money is actually, quite rarely, the driving factor regardless of what people say. You can see this in.... just about any business that you talk to.
Again, I think this boils down to a lack of education - and I don't mean like college education, but business education.
No, I can't stress this enough, and I have so many times - this isn't about business. This is about basic adulting.
Well, then we will simply disagree - you mentioned that most will be exposed to this by an in home care giver.. being exposed does not make one actually aware of it, or make it part of their being.
That's what I said?
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
... otherwise you'd think even crazy emotional business people would realize that saving money by using an ITSP would be good.
This is assuming that even emotional people are rational when it comes to business, which directly goes against everything else said. The reality is, most business owners in the SMB don't care about making money. They have other, emotional things, that they care about more. Like getting to feel in control or just playing at business without real responsibilities. Making money is actually, quite rarely, the driving factor regardless of what people say. You can see this in.... just about any business that you talk to.
Again, I think this boils down to a lack of education - and I don't mean like college education, but business education.
No, I can't stress this enough, and I have so many times - this isn't about business. This is about basic adulting.
Well, then we will simply disagree
Right, because you expect most adults to be outright stupid and I don't agree. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I don't agree.
The degree to which you have a low bar for the capability of humanity is... more than I can fathom.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
See that's where I don't agree - I don't think they don't care, I consider it that they are ignorant - they simply don't know.
I realize that I've been incorrect about ignorant in the past. In this case, I can't believe anyone can be that ignorant as a functional adult, hence my point. It would requiring ignoring basic common sense and adult skills to not understand this, hence why ignorant is wrong because ignorant means uninformed, rather than a state of having ignored. The real issue has to be a state of having ignored obvious knowledge.
This boils down to common knowledge comments - but really, what is common knowledge anymore?
Well this certainly is. If anything is, this is. And it isn't common knowledge, it's common sense. It doesn't require having been told or trained. It's just basic human interactions.
This is where the typical trusting nature of humans dissuades your argument. The common sense/ingrained sense is to trust what other humans are telling you.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
See that's where I don't agree - I don't think they don't care, I consider it that they are ignorant - they simply don't know.
I realize that I've been incorrect about ignorant in the past. In this case, I can't believe anyone can be that ignorant as a functional adult, hence my point. It would requiring ignoring basic common sense and adult skills to not understand this, hence why ignorant is wrong because ignorant means uninformed, rather than a state of having ignored. The real issue has to be a state of having ignored obvious knowledge.
This boils down to common knowledge comments - but really, what is common knowledge anymore?
Well this certainly is. If anything is, this is. And it isn't common knowledge, it's common sense. It doesn't require having been told or trained. It's just basic human interactions.
This is where the typical trusting nature of humans dissuades your argument. The common sense/ingrained sense is to trust what other humans are telling you.
That's not common sense, that would be a lack of common sense. Trusting people who have outright exposed that they are going to mislead you to their own benefit, and that it is their paid job to do so, is... insane. What could be more non-common sensical?
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
I do not. They will work but the sound is always better if you use separates. If something breaks in the receiver then you fix or replace the whole unit so its usually more expensive. If you want to mix and match components you can't do that either with a receiver or with any other multifunction boxes. Just my opinion.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
See that's where I don't agree - I don't think they don't care, I consider it that they are ignorant - they simply don't know.
I realize that I've been incorrect about ignorant in the past. In this case, I can't believe anyone can be that ignorant as a functional adult, hence my point. It would requiring ignoring basic common sense and adult skills to not understand this, hence why ignorant is wrong because ignorant means uninformed, rather than a state of having ignored. The real issue has to be a state of having ignored obvious knowledge.
This boils down to common knowledge comments - but really, what is common knowledge anymore?
Well this certainly is. If anything is, this is. And it isn't common knowledge, it's common sense. It doesn't require having been told or trained. It's just basic human interactions.
This is where the typical trusting nature of humans dissuades your argument.
Where do you see this in other aspects of life? This seems like a weird statement. I'd have guessed that most people are overly distrusting, not that their incredible sense of trust makes even people who warn them not to trust them, to trust them anyway.
Also, what does trusting someone that tells them not to trust them even mean? You have to either distrust that they warned you, or distrust what they warned you about. Distrust is guaranteed in that situation.
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@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
I do not. They will work but the sound is always better if you use separates. If something breaks in the receiver then you fix or replace the whole unit so its usually more expensive. If you want to mix and match components you can't do that either with a receiver or with any other multifunction boxes. Just my opinion.
Especially real receivers that have radio and crap in them. That's just silly. Why listens to the radio from a receiver?
But all that electronics in the box, it just makes the audio worst. I even moved away from pre-amps for that reason.
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@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
I do not. They will work but the sound is always better if you use separates. If something breaks in the receiver then you fix or replace the whole unit so its usually more expensive. If you want to mix and match components you can't do that either with a receiver or with any other multifunction boxes. Just my opinion.
LOL - of course - but the expense of splitting out all of the components isn't worth it for me personally, not to mention that I'm not an audiophile in any type of way, so unbelievably great audio quality isn't something I need or care about.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
I do not. They will work but the sound is always better if you use separates. If something breaks in the receiver then you fix or replace the whole unit so its usually more expensive. If you want to mix and match components you can't do that either with a receiver or with any other multifunction boxes. Just my opinion.
Especially real receivers that have radio and crap in them. That's just silly. Why listens to the radio from a receiver?
But all that electronics in the box, it just makes the audio worst. I even moved away from pre-amps for that reason.
I'll start a new thread.
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@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@dashrender said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@jmoore said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
But, like all things of this nature, I've presented my side as to "why" keeping firewalls and the things considered "UTM functions" in separate places.
Now, some feel the opposite. For those that want to say that UTMs (putting lots of applications together onto the router/firewall box) is better than the normal industry standard practice of keeping applications isolated, please present your reasons for wanting that. I've presented solid reasons, that you might not agree with, for why I'd follow industry best practice here. I don't remember anyone saying why they'd do the opposite, only questioning why I'd not do it, which isn't the same as presenting a reason.
So I'm asking... what's the reasons for going against the grain in this one case? There are exceptions to most every rule, but I've not seen anyone anywhere ever present an argument for UTMs, only that they'd use them despite the reasons against them.
It is not only the IT industry that does this. The audio/video industry does this also, maybe others do too. In a business or enterprise setup we never use equipment that contains all the functions in a single box, which is analogous to UTM's in the IT space. We separate out all the functions because it is more versatile, more reliable, usually more cost effective, and easier to troubleshoot issues. Do companies make boxes that include a pre-amp, amp, tuner, networking, storage, disc players, switchting, video processors and sound processors? Yes they do. Should you ever use one if your a business? Absolutely not if you can avoid it. If you have no other choice, like if someone else bought it and its your job to support then you just have to make do. If you have the budget then use separates, whether vm's or physical devices if you can't use a vm.
I take it you don't like audio receivers then?
I do not. They will work but the sound is always better if you use separates. If something breaks in the receiver then you fix or replace the whole unit so its usually more expensive. If you want to mix and match components you can't do that either with a receiver or with any other multifunction boxes. Just my opinion.
LOL - of course - but the expense of splitting out all of the components isn't worth it for me personally, not to mention that I'm not an audiophile in any type of way, so unbelievably great audio quality isn't something I need or care about.
Doesn't cost more, can even cost less. It's actually audiophilia where I learned this best. I had forgotten this. But it was because I came from that world that I was so well versed that enterprise class stuff was normally cheaper than mid-range. It's the mid-range / prosumer world where they normally get you. This is where UTM is. It's where someone knows they want to be "cooler than consumer" but aren't yet prepared to do proper research or treat themselves like enterprise (or Hi Fi). The result is someone that is easy to take advantage of - the UTM or receiver markets are where the big sales and big profits are.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@tim_g said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
A lot of places will have SonicWALLs who haven't gotten it through an ITSP. Upper management made the decision to get a SonicWALL through their own research. And that's the way it is, in the real world. Not in Scott's world, but the real world.
Where Scott's world = "good business".
Scott never, ever suggested businesses made good decisions. Scott teaches how to make good decisions. Don't equate Scott's ideas of "what good looks like" with a misconception that I think the normal world looks good. The average business is idiotic and fails in under five years. "Normal" means abject failure in business.
I was pointing out how you are defining the real world as being best practice followers ... as in Scott's world all SMBs are doing everything correctly. I was pointing out that it's the opposite. Most SMBs are not following best practices for whatever reason.
They should be, but aren't for a ton of different reasons. That's all.
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@tim_g said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@tim_g said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
A lot of places will have SonicWALLs who haven't gotten it through an ITSP. Upper management made the decision to get a SonicWALL through their own research. And that's the way it is, in the real world. Not in Scott's world, but the real world.
Where Scott's world = "good business".
Scott never, ever suggested businesses made good decisions. Scott teaches how to make good decisions. Don't equate Scott's ideas of "what good looks like" with a misconception that I think the normal world looks good. The average business is idiotic and fails in under five years. "Normal" means abject failure in business.
I was pointing out how you are defining the real world as being best practice followers ...
When did I ever say that? I keep saying that it is the opposite of that.
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@tim_g said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
... as in Scott's world all SMBs are doing everything correctly. I was pointing out that it's the opposite. Most SMBs are not following best practices for whatever reason.
Right, which is exactly what I say ALL the time. In every thread. We have this same discussion constantly and I'm always pointing out, more than anyone, how SMBs do nothing right, that they should still follow best practices, and regardless of the fact that they don't listen or care does not mean that we should alter what is "good advice" to intentionally give bad advice just because most people don't care.
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@scottalanmiller said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
@tim_g said in Thoughts on how I could improve my network security?:
... as in Scott's world all SMBs are doing everything correctly. I was pointing out that it's the opposite. Most SMBs are not following best practices for whatever reason.
Right, which is exactly what I say ALL the time. In every thread. We have this same discussion constantly and I'm always pointing out, more than anyone, how SMBs do nothing right, that they should still follow best practices, and regardless of the fact that they don't listen or care does not mean that we should alter what is "good advice" to intentionally give bad advice just because most people don't care.
Okay I see what you mean now.
