When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
Exactly. Since they can't see it, then find someone who can. If you need to get some more experience, see if you can setup an inexpensive lab at work while you look for something else.
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I was reading a bit elsewhere where someone mentioned that SMB admins get paid for X task at 1X value and another task at X10 value, so their value is lesser. However, I would like to point out that the value is cumulative, and even enterprise specialists are a dime a dozen, while good SMB admins are not. The value is proportional to the business size, so a 10X value is not the same value to an organization with Y resources versus an enterprise with 1,000,000Y resources.
It's really not as simple as some have suggested it to be, because a million dollars is a crap-ton of money for someone who makes 50k/year, as that's 20 years worth of income if they someone managed to not spend a single penny. For someone who makes 100K/year, it's worth less than half that.. because all the extra resources allow for more investments, and other means through which to amass more resources. Just because Enterprises think something is worth X doesn't change that most SMBs will ascribe a VASTLY different value to that same thing. The two are practically incomparable without acknowledging that needs and value are totally and completely different, because it is a subjective ascription.
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
Exactly. Since they can't see it, then find someone who can. If you need to get some more experience, see if you can setup an inexpensive lab at work while you look for something else.
I access my home lab remotely while I'm here
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
However, I would like to point out that the value is cumulative, and even enterprise specialists are a dime a dozen, while good SMB admins are not.
The problem is two fold. One is that it's not cumulative, does not work that way at all. And I can demonstrate that concretely because the tasks can be done by individuals at the respective rates. And enterprise specialists are not a dime a dozen, they are in high demand and earn high wages because of it.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Just because Enterprises think something is worth X doesn't change that most SMBs will ascribe a VASTLY different value to that same thing. The two are practically incomparable without acknowledging that needs and value are totally and completely different, because it is a subjective ascription.
Having worked in both, there is no difference in needed skills. Only generally a difference in the ability to leverage and pay for those skills. SMBs need all the same skills as enterprises do, but have no scale with which to leverage them. They just can't let them work efficiently or stay focused.
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
If there is no communications, you are not on a team. You are working as an individual.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
That makes MSPs a sizable money sink versus on-site IT 99% of the time, ....
This is a misunderstanding of MSPs. MSPs are not the opposite of on-site IT. MSPs are neither on site nor off site. Just as internal IT is neither on site nor off site. MSPs are simply external IT organizations instead of internal ones. MSPs are just as available to be on site, 100% full time and 100% dedicated to a single customer as internal IT staff is.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Since when aren't almost all MSPs SMBs too? Or are they silently excluded from that blanket statement?
MSPs don't act like SMBs. Because they are a single department. If you are measuring SMB vs. Enterprise purely by head count, yes they would be SMBs. But if you measure them by size and skill of IT organization then they are generally more medium to large business. Even a relatively small MSPs might have the people and resources of hundreds or thousands of SMBs. So in the respects that matter, not an SMB at all.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Since SMBs are fighting most MSPs for the same talent.. what makes MSPs automatically superior to the SMBs they serve, especially since they don't have any more resources than the SMBs do to fight for said talent (perhaps even less)?
A few things...
- Infrastructure. They are professional IT organizations, not lone IT people in another organization. This totally changes the IT value proposition in every imaginable way.
- Ladders. They is a career path.
- They can earn dramatically more because they leverage specialties that SMBs cannot on their own.
- Variety that SMBs cannot offer.
- IT hired by IT. SMBs have generally zero ability to identify and hire good IT because they have no IT without them. MSPs don't have this issue. The degree to which the is advantageous is enormous.
Reverse it. SMBs have no advantages to IT hiring except that they often offer the ability to "do less". If you are non-competitive and looking for an easy ride doing very little, internal SMB IT is the most likely (but no guarantee) of being able to find this. Enterprises tend to keep you really busy and use metrics to watch this. MSPs need to service customers and keep density rates up. But internal IT in an SMB is often overlooked and forgotten. So that one aspect may lure many an IT pro to a long, low key career without upward mobility.
But for anyone looking for career growth and opportunity, education, advancement, peers, mentorship, income, challenge, variety - the SMB lacks in all areas. They have nothing to offer a talented, ambitious IT person vis a vis an MSP.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
I wasn't attempting to imply that IT doesn't get involved hiring other IT, just that that's very far from the norm in the real world as a general rule. It certainly happens, just not nearly as much as some seem to think it does. I've never once interviewed with IT anywhere from government agencies to Fortune 100 enterprises, or SMBs. Sure there must be many that do have IT hire IT, but it's the exception in places that understand how to not be dumb, which is sadly less common than it should be. That was more the point I was making.
In the SMB, where there would normally only be one IT person (and if there isn't only one, that's another issue causing the same problem here) there really can never be IT hiring IT unless an outside IT firm is brought in to do that (I do that stuff if anyone cares.) But outside of the SMB, I've never seen anywhere that had non-IT hire IT except at IBM, where it was the head of department bringing in a CIO level person so a little different. Literally, never seen any company from 1,000 people (totally, not IT) or larger that didn't have IT hiring IT.
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@scottalanmiller said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Since SMBs are fighting most MSPs for the same talent.. what makes MSPs automatically superior to the SMBs they serve, especially since they don't have any more resources than the SMBs do to fight for said talent (perhaps even less)?
A few things...
- Infrastructure. They are professional IT organizations, not lone IT people in another organization. This totally changes the IT value proposition in every imaginable way.
- Ladders. They is a career path.
- They can earn dramatically more because they leverage specialties that SMBs cannot on their own.
- Variety that SMBs cannot offer.
- IT hired by IT. SMBs have generally zero ability to identify and hire good IT because they have no IT without them. MSPs don't have this issue. The degree to which the is advantageous is enormous.
Reverse it. SMBs have no advantages to IT hiring except that they often offer the ability to "do less". If you are non-competitive and looking for an easy ride doing very little, internal SMB IT is the most likely (but no guarantee) of being able to find this. Enterprises tend to keep you really busy and use metrics to watch this. MSPs need to service customers and keep density rates up. But internal IT in an SMB is often overlooked and forgotten. So that one aspect may lure many an IT pro to a long, low key career without upward mobility.
But for anyone looking for career growth and opportunity, education, advancement, peers, mentorship, income, challenge, variety - the SMB lacks in all areas. They have nothing to offer a talented, ambitious IT person vis a vis an MSP.
I must have really lucked out. Most of the stuff you said you don't get with an SMB is something I get or made happen here. I am ambitious and have tackled the vast majority of projects myself and I get paid pretty well. I would like to move on at some point but I drive a lot of what happens here so it keeps me learning and growing my skill set. It definitely helps that the company is growing and also looking to increase efficiency of workflows, by way of technology.
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Reverse it. SMBs have no advantages to IT hiring except that they often offer the ability to "do less". If you are non-competitive and looking for an easy ride doing very little, internal SMB IT is the most likely (but no guarantee) of being able to find this. Enterprises tend to keep you really busy and use metrics to watch this. MSPs need to service customers and keep density rates up. But internal IT in an SMB is often overlooked and forgotten. So that one aspect may lure many an IT pro to a long, low key career without upward mobility.
But for anyone looking for career growth and opportunity, education, advancement, peers, mentorship, income, challenge, variety - the SMB lacks in all areas. They have nothing to offer a talented, ambitious IT person vis a vis an MSP.
This. ^^^^
It finally sunk into me not long before I joined ML that I could easily "do what I do" at my SMB and never develop new skills or really sharpen the ones I have without finding outside stuff to do / try / learn.
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@scottalanmiller MSPs do not provide great opportunity for advancement near as appealing as a solid SMB does for Internal IT. As you stated, and it is the same for Enterprise, both are very focused upon efficiency and staying active. Neither of those anywhere leaves much room for anything else but repetition. The argument is back-asswards, because Enterprise IT is concerned with efficiency and repeatability, not creativity. MSPs are concerned with efficiency and customer density, not creativity or versatility unless they are pretty explicitly to improve efficiency or density. Both are cold places for anyone who doesn't already know what they want to specialize in, because both are all about specialists, and people who like them only care about specializations. Enterprises suffer from their size, because while they might be efficient, they're very rarely particularly creative, because doing anything quickly or with a high amount of change is increasingly difficult the larger the scale becomes.
The problem is very similar to what my father often remarks about college degrees in the fields where they're actually important like engineering, and polymer science. The statement goes a bit like this: People with Bachelors Degrees know a little about a lot of things. People with Masters Degrees know a lot about a few things. People with PHD's know so much about one thing that they can hardly understand anything else. Specialization is generally at the expense of versatility, not in any way an automatic compliment. Generalists make better specialists than the inverse, because Generalists already know a broad variety of things. Specialists can do one thing very well, and the more specialized they are, the more they are likely to know about their specialty, and typically the less they know about what is outside of it unless they have to directly interact on a frequent basis. Take them outside of their specialty, and ask them to do something unrelated..... good luck, because the longer they operate in their specialty, the more likely they will forget more and more outside of it, no differently than IT generalists doing highly specialized work.
For task that span a variety of disciplines with IT takes one decent guy a few hours to do by themselves in an SMB, you may end up having to get multiple individuals to accomplish it through an MSP who has to share every single individual in the organization with multiple other organizations, which actually means that the whole process gets done far faster, for a lot less money, and arguably no less effectively by your generic SMB IT admin in many cases. Sure, the SMB Admin may have to spend more time researching before doing the job... but between Google, Youtube, and a handful of IT support sites, there's extremely little that an Admin for an SMB can't do just as well or better for their organization than an MSP can. The thing is, most SMBs don't need any great level of specialization to do what they need to do... so... why hire an industrial, high-voltage substation maintenance technician to wire up some regular old electrical outlets and light switches? Most SMBs don't need a specialist, which is why most SMBs don't hire them. MSPs are absolutely valuable, but it's arrogant to suggest that SMBs shouldn't hire their own IT or they're bad businesses where IT is concerned. Maybe you just don't understand their IT needs well enough to understand why your opinion is incorrect?
MSP infrastructure is only a benefit if the SMB's needs actually align with the MSPs configuration. A specialist by definition doesn't get variety lol, if they get variety, then they're not specialists.. so no, your statement about MSP specialists getting variety is absolutely false unless you're talking about the capacity to change specialties within the organization, which every IT Generalist in every SMB does already, so not a pro there. There's a variety of specializations available in an MSP, but no different than in an Enterprise.. there's absolutely zero guarantee you will ever get to switch out of the specialization you are in. As previously stated, Enterprises and MSPs are focused on efficiency, not what their staff want to do so much. If you're good at what you do, they are all going to weigh the loss of your good job at what you do, with what you might be able to accomplish in another role. Whether or not you are allowed to move isn't going to be much different either way, where in an SMB, there was never even a question there... the IT staff does it, period. So I'm not really certain how it is that MSP laborers somehow get to do more as specialists than SMB as generalists. A Specialist by definition will never see as much variety as a generalist.
It feels to me like the problem is a lack of appreciation for generalists. I'de point out, that most of the best folks in an organization aren't specialists, but generalists. They tend to know a little about a lot, which also includes knowing when to talk to specialists about specialized things. The two both have their places, which interestingly enough seem to be with generalists either being near the top of the totem pole, or near the bottom (with pay to match) while specialists fill in most everything in between.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller MSPs do not provide great opportunity for advancement near as appealing as a solid SMB does for Internal IT.
SMBs have only one role, typically. MSPs have many. How does any SMB offer any advancement, ever? Outside of the SMB itself growing, which they rarely do.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
The argument is back-asswards, because Enterprise IT is concerned with efficiency and repeatability, not creativity.
Have you worked in the enterprise? This is as backwards as it gets. I've never worked in an enterprise that didn't prize and reward creativity. That's one of the benefits - freedom, resources and support for looking at creative solutions. Which explains why nearly all of those kinds of things come from the enterprise space in the first place. That's where innovation is normally happening.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
MSPs are concerned with efficiency and customer density, not creativity or versatility unless they are pretty explicitly to improve efficiency or density.
I can tell you working in the MSP space, this is backwards. Not even kind of what it is like. Creativity is a huge factor. Just asked @gjacobse who had a support call with me today and we spent the whole time being creative for the customer.
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@scottalanmiller How do you advance from doing everything?
This is literally the argument of how you advance from SMB IT to MSP IT. You cannot advance from doing everything, while as MSP IT, you will never do that, therefor there is a logical path for advancement. -
@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Enterprises suffer from their size, because while they might be efficient, they're very rarely particularly creative, because doing anything quickly or with a high amount of change is increasingly difficult the larger the scale becomes.
There is a logic to this, but I've not seen that become a big factor in big business. Enterprises tend to have the resources and knowledge as to the importance of building in creative time to allow staff to be creative. That's why they have creative work spaces and all kinds of programs to invest in creativity in the work place. They provide time and resources for this kind of stuff. Yes, they scale makes it difficult to turn the ship around, but it also makes it easy for people to test theories and ideas. Even big ones.
I've worked across the space from the smallest of SMBs to the biggest of enterprises and while there is some creativity everywhere, the degree to which it is commonly encouraged and empowered in the enterprise far outstrips what is common in the SMB. SMBs have to fight fires and deal with politics, enterprises have managers and teams to make sure you have free time and resources to go after tackling problems in ambitious and creative ways.
