When is Something Built from Source
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This entire XO build thing is fucking stupid. It is not building anything. It never has.
The developers need to update their terminology to remove the phrase build from sources.
Build can be a valid term because you are building and rebuilding the file structure with NPM.
Source (not sources) can be a valid term because you are getting something from a source.
Build from source is a very specific phrase that is 100% not applicable to what XO is doing.
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@DustinB3403 said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@Danp said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
What code changes were you making previously?
Here's one example where this could occur.
What do you mean? If you change the code and restart, it will always be modified in the running system. Always. Your example here doesn't state anything contrary to that.
Did you actually add that functionality and not have it work?
We added the functionality to XO and it does work. https://github.com/Jarli01/xenorchestra_updater/commit/a3d8f60cff8cbfc3bc4c1a09346f2d786c759052
Hey awesome.
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@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@DustinB3403 said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@Danp said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
What code changes were you making previously?
Here's one example where this could occur.
What do you mean? If you change the code and restart, it will always be modified in the running system. Always. Your example here doesn't state anything contrary to that.
Did you actually add that functionality and not have it work?
We added the functionality to XO and it does work. https://github.com/Jarli01/xenorchestra_updater/commit/a3d8f60cff8cbfc3bc4c1a09346f2d786c759052
Hey awesome.
Thanks.
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@DustinB3403 said in When is Something Built from Source:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@Danp said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
What code changes were you making previously?
Here's one example where this could occur.
What do you mean? If you change the code and restart, it will always be modified in the running system. Always. Your example here doesn't state anything contrary to that.
Did you actually add that functionality and not have it work?
We added the functionality to XO and it does work. https://github.com/Jarli01/xenorchestra_updater/commit/a3d8f60cff8cbfc3bc4c1a09346f2d786c759052
True, but only after running the NPM command post modifications.
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From the other thread
Thanks for this thread. While I believe that I understood, and agree with what Scott and JB are saying, I didn't actually watch the install process of XO close enough to know if there was an actual compile process going on, therefore made an assumption based on the typical definition of "build from source" that source code was being downloaded and compiled.
Scott, other than dissecting the install script, how is a non dev person suppose to know if they are installing non compiled script versus needing to be compiled source versus pre compiled code?
I have compiled source before, both in Windows and nix systems, but have done it so little and so long ago that I did it by instructions, not memory or even complete understanding. Clearly I would never claim to know how to just hop to and build some source.
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@Danp said in When is Something Built from Source:
@DustinB3403 said in When is Something Built from Source:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@Danp said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
@scottalanmiller said in XenOrchestra XOSAN...a pic is worth 1000 words:
What code changes were you making previously?
Here's one example where this could occur.
What do you mean? If you change the code and restart, it will always be modified in the running system. Always. Your example here doesn't state anything contrary to that.
Did you actually add that functionality and not have it work?
We added the functionality to XO and it does work. https://github.com/Jarli01/xenorchestra_updater/commit/a3d8f60cff8cbfc3bc4c1a09346f2d786c759052
True, but only after running the NPM command post modifications.
Git does not modify the sources, necessarily. It just pulls down a copy, not necessarily to the running location. Unless you actually verified that you modified the source, you can't assume that you did. NPM would be expected to take the copy that you download and put it into the right place to be used as the running file. This explains the confusion. Go into the actual source you are using and make code modifications. You see them take effect immediately upon restart. That's all that NPM is doing for you, it's automating that placement on your behalf.
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
From the other thread
Scott, other than dissecting the install script, how is a non dev person suppose to know if they are installing non compiled script versus needing to be compiled source versus pre compiled code?
Well, hopefully they will know because they will be told to "install" rather than "build". But there are some key hints like...
- NodeJS cannot be compiled.
- NPM is a package installer, not a compilation process.
- No compiler is ever installed by the end user.
The lack of compilation step really is the big tip off. There is no compiler dependency anywhere.
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It would be incredibly uncommon for someone to build from source and not know it. Could it be automated? Yeah, potentially. For anything big? No, not reasonably. Compiling from source is a bit technical and you would know if you were doing it. If you don't know how to compile C code, assume you aren't
It's a bit like my friend's father in law who told everyone that he was a "video game programmer". Turns out, he didn't know what programming was and thought that it meant "installing". So he would pop a CD into his PC, double click the installer and five minutes later he's announce that he's "programmed a new game".
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Or, you know, like Curtis. Bwahahaha
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
Clearly I would never claim to know how to just hop to and build some source.
Exactly. But in the case of things like this, the follow command would be considered "building from source":
wget http://myserver.com/somefile.phpJust downloading it would qualify as that is a copy operation.
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
I didn't actually watch the install process of XO close enough to know if there was an actual compile process going on, therefore made an assumption based on the typical definition of "build from source" that source code was being downloaded and compiled.
That's really the issue we are up against. The term is originating from a place where it is kind of being used to make it sound scarier than it is - to encourage adoption of the pre-built VM. And then it is getting repeated. It is, for all intents and purposes, marketing and one that has been used effectively as even IT people are repeating it and, as you said, making assumptions based around it.
In reality, because of how it is being used, even downloading XOA constitutes "building from source" because it is also a copy operation involving the source code.
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@scottalanmiller said in When is Something Built from Source:
@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
From the other thread
Scott, other than dissecting the install script, how is a non dev person suppose to know if they are installing non compiled script versus needing to be compiled source versus pre compiled code?
Well, hopefully they will know because they will be told to "install" rather than "build". But there are some key hints like...
- NodeJS cannot be compiled.
- NPM is a package installer, not a compilation process.
- No compiler is ever installed by the end user.
The lack of compilation step really is the big tip off. There is no compiler dependency anywhere.
Again - all of that stuff can be scripted - I had no idea XO was made in NodeJS, you can script the install of the compiler, you can script the compilation process.
So I don't see this big tip off you're talking about. I will admit that I'm looking at this through my Windows admin goggles.
Someone who knows and understands what the scripts are doing I would fully expect to understand this process.
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@scottalanmiller said in When is Something Built from Source:
It would be incredibly uncommon for someone to build from source and not know it. Could it be automated? Yeah, potentially. For anything big? No, not reasonably. Compiling from source is a bit technical and you would know if you were doing it. If you don't know how to compile C code, assume you aren't
It's a bit like my friend's father in law who told everyone that he was a "video game programmer". Turns out, he didn't know what programming was and thought that it meant "installing". So he would pop a CD into his PC, double click the installer and five minutes later he's announce that he's "programmed a new game".
Yeah - sadly, this is completely common.
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
Again - all of that stuff can be scripted - I had no idea XO was made in NodeJS, you can script the install of the compiler, you can script the compilation process.
CAN script it, yes, but you'd have a compiler sitting about. Literally nothing does that. And compilation is not reliable, that's why it is scary to talk about. Basically you never know if it will work across different systems. So you need human intervention. If you were actually able to script compilation reliably, no one would be concerned about using it.
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
So I don't see this big tip off you're talking about. I will admit that I'm looking at this through my Windows admin goggles.
Actually use those goggles. Tell me when anyone has snuck a compiler past you on Windows? I bet the answer is... never. You've never downloaded source code and run "commands" and ended up with executables. It just doesn't happen - it's that complex and Windows is much more predictable as a single OS than Linux is as an OS family.
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
Again - all of that stuff can be scripted - I had no idea XO was made in NodeJS,
The process involved using NPM, the NodeJS Package Manager
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@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
@scottalanmiller said in When is Something Built from Source:
It would be incredibly uncommon for someone to build from source and not know it. Could it be automated? Yeah, potentially. For anything big? No, not reasonably. Compiling from source is a bit technical and you would know if you were doing it. If you don't know how to compile C code, assume you aren't
It's a bit like my friend's father in law who told everyone that he was a "video game programmer". Turns out, he didn't know what programming was and thought that it meant "installing". So he would pop a CD into his PC, double click the installer and five minutes later he's announce that he's "programmed a new game".
Yeah - sadly, this is completely common.
And that's what makes it useful as a marketing tool. It's just common enough that things like this are kind of acceptable, even though they aren't accurate. But it creates a sense of wonder, even when dealing with something very simple.
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It seems like we need a new term for scripting code - i.e. not calling it source code.
A Dashrender thing source code to me is code that needs to be compiled to be useful. A script is not source code in my mind, though I can definitely see why others would say otherwise, so I wouldn't bother arguing the point.
Before this thread, if someone posted here's my source code, grab it and install it. I'd ask - how do I compile it?
I guess now I have to ask - does it require compilation, or is it some sort of script? -
@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
It seems like we need a new term for scripting code - i.e. not calling it source code.
We don't normally
It IS source, because it's the first thing created. But normally we call it a script, until someone wants to make it sound like they are going to compile it later. Just the use of "source" at all is, you are correct, used here with the intent of being misleading. Sure, it's source, it is also the final product. It's everything. -
@Dashrender said in When is Something Built from Source:
Before this thread, if someone posted here's my source code, grab it and install it. I'd ask - how do I compile it?
I guess now I have to ask - does it require compilation, or is it some sort of script?You are safe assuming that anyone saying it is source means that you need to compile. It's purely in the circumstances of marketing that someone technical would use it in this manner. You truly never hear of scripts called source code that I know of. It's not entirely wrong, it's just really pointless and silly.
