Files in a LANLESS system



  • @scottalanmiller covered briefly the use case of moving to a database system rather than single files. Rather than creating individual Word, Excel, (etc) files, you would just add that information to a central database.

    How do you get started in this? Considering Multi Platforms, Multi OS and Multi Devices which would want to access the data.

    @scottalanmiller - please correct if I remember this being covered wrong, and the @tags if needed.



  • Generally when I see stuff like this they are advocating for NextCloud, Alfresco, or Sharepoint. Where the files are uploaded to the "site" and you only access them in that interface.



  • @coliver said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Generally when I see stuff like this they are advocating for NextCloud, Alfresco, or Sharepoint. Where the files are uploaded to the "site" and you only access them in that interface.

    Sharepoint was mentioned, but I have a preference of avoiding any type of MS product if possible.


  • Service Provider

    Things like NextCloud, ownCloud, OneDrive and such are one step removed, they interface through a generic web interface to get data in and out. It's a great spot for "things that are not integrated."

    The even better step is direct integration. For example, MS Word or LibreOffice Writer could be easily modified (by MS for Word or by volunteers for LOW) to use a driver to talk directly to a document database, like MongoDB. Instead of writing their data to a file (their data is just text, anyway) they could write directly to a database document object in the same manner. There would need to be a simple framework for naming, tagging and listing "documents", but the process would be very simple. Just as easy or easier than writing to the filesystem, actually.



  • @gjacobse said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @coliver said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Generally when I see stuff like this they are advocating for NextCloud, Alfresco, or Sharepoint. Where the files are uploaded to the "site" and you only access them in that interface.

    Sharepoint was mentioned, but I have a preference of avoiding any type of MS product if possible.

    Alfresco does some of the stuff that Sharepoint does and is open source. Confluence is another option.



  • The problem with writing directly to a database and not files stored in a database is getting the data to others outside your company.

    Sure, you could open the system to the internet, ala Sharepoint online - not sure I really like that idea for things like NextCloud - but that just might be my jitters.

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    Sharepoint still uses old files, so you can create a link to that file, email the link, the receiving person clicks the link, visits a website, then clicks a button on the website to open the file with the local copy of Word. That's a lot of steps.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    The problem with writing directly to a database and not files stored in a database is getting the data to others outside your company.

    Not really, it's not actually particularly harder from a technology perspective. Works the same.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Sure, you could open the system to the internet, ala Sharepoint online - not sure I really like that idea for things like NextCloud - but that just might be my jitters.

    How do you do it today without opening it to the Internet?


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Sharepoint still uses old files, so you can create a link to that file, email the link, the receiving person clicks the link, visits a website, then clicks a button on the website to open the file with the local copy of Word. That's a lot of steps.

    What's the alternative? Sending files in email?



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Sure, you could open the system to the internet, ala Sharepoint online - not sure I really like that idea for things like NextCloud - but that just might be my jitters.

    How do you do it today without opening it to the Internet?

    email the file to them.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    Sure, you could open the system to the internet, ala Sharepoint online - not sure I really like that idea for things like NextCloud - but that just might be my jitters.

    How do you do it today without opening it to the Internet?

    email the file to them.

    Why couldn't you do that with the database system, too? Your email client or server would just need the same connector.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?


  • Service Provider

    Keep in mind that OneDrive and Google Apps are doing this already today. So this isn't a big issue that is just theory, it's literally already solved in specific cases.



  • @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    FYI, I didn't think you were - Instead I was responding to Gene's specific typing in the OP.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.


  • Service Provider

    With a document database and a RESTful interface, you can literally do things like this...

    https://mysite/my_word_doc.docx

    To get a file, but it is coming straight out of a database with no files. The "file" Is something that is actually created by the browser not the database. It's only a file to the end user, never to the server. If you don't want to use it as a file, you don't. The decision is at the end point, not at the storage point.

    This isn't like "if you add this cool application" kind of thing. This is "under the hood" interfaces to many databases today!


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    With a document database and a RESTful interface, you can literally do things like this...

    https://mysite/my_word_doc.docx

    To get a file, but it is coming straight out of a database with no files. The "file" Is something that is actually created by the browser not the database. It's only a file to the end user, never to the server. If you don't want to use it as a file, you don't. The decision is at the end point, not at the storage point.

    This isn't like "if you add this cool application" kind of thing. This is "under the hood" interfaces to many databases today!

    Interesting - so you're saying that OneDrive works this way today? or at least SharePoint (ODfB) works this way today?


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.

    Or a good example because it shows how easily it can be done and how well people can't even tell.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    With a document database and a RESTful interface, you can literally do things like this...

    https://mysite/my_word_doc.docx

    To get a file, but it is coming straight out of a database with no files. The "file" Is something that is actually created by the browser not the database. It's only a file to the end user, never to the server. If you don't want to use it as a file, you don't. The decision is at the end point, not at the storage point.

    This isn't like "if you add this cool application" kind of thing. This is "under the hood" interfaces to many databases today!

    Interesting - so you're saying that OneDrive works this way today? or at least SharePoint (ODfB) works this way today?

    You can never know exactly how it works, but very likely this is what it does. It is not efficient at all to use a file system and files for this stuff. SharePoint is a database so ODfB is definitely using SharePoint instead of the filesystem.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.

    Or a good example because it shows how easily it can be done and how well people can't even tell.

    LOL - yeah, but you are limited to only MS based files, All other files are just stored as objects in the DB.


  • Service Provider

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.

    Or a good example because it shows how easily it can be done and how well people can't even tell.

    LOL - yeah, but you are limited to only MS based files, All other files are just stored as objects in the DB.

    Are they? I'm not sure of that. But that's always going to be the case. File systems are for ad hoc, unplanned files. The real question should be... why do such files exist in your environment? When do you actually want ad hoc file types that you didn't expect?


  • Service Provider

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.

    Or a good example because it shows how easily it can be done and how well people can't even tell.

    LOL - yeah, but you are limited to only MS based files, All other files are just stored as objects in the DB.

    Are they? I'm not sure of that. But that's always going to be the case. File systems are for ad hoc, unplanned files. The real question should be... why do such files exist in your environment? When do you actually want ad hoc file types that you didn't expect?

    Actually Sharepoint does not natively interface .doc files either. It only uses the new format .docx files in the manner you are saying.



  • @JaredBusch said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @Dashrender said in Files in a LANLESS system:

    @scottalanmiller let's assume that we get direct application access from Word/Writer into SP or NC, how do you send a link to someone else so they know they have access? How do you register that 'link' in some way so that the correct application launches when trying to open the link?

    How do you do it today? Why would it need to change at all?

    Paying particular attention to Gene's wording, there would be no more files, only data in a DB. In that case, to send the information via email would mean extracting that data into some kind of usable format then emailing it.

    So the contents of the file are simply sent as a file.... that's all a file normally is, a database holding text directly on it with a label on it with the filename. So.... literally nothing changes here under the hood. There is no more or less extraction than before.

    You were weren't talking about getting rid of docx files and xlsx files, etc?

    Yup, and still am. No files, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a file "view".

    But OneDrive, etc still store those things as objects, I don't think you can edit the 'Word.doc' file directly inside the DB, you need to send that object of data to Word to edit it.

    As objects, not as files. I don't need to pull the files from OneDrive to edit them. I can talk to the database directly with MS Office 2013 or later, even the online version.

    Yeah Office is a bad example because of the massive integration.

    Or a good example because it shows how easily it can be done and how well people can't even tell.

    LOL - yeah, but you are limited to only MS based files, All other files are just stored as objects in the DB.

    Are they? I'm not sure of that. But that's always going to be the case. File systems are for ad hoc, unplanned files. The real question should be... why do such files exist in your environment? When do you actually want ad hoc file types that you didn't expect?

    Actually Sharepoint does not natively interface .doc files either. It only uses the new format .docx files in the manner you are saying.

    Don't I know it.. I was playing with SharePoint and damn if I didn't have all kinds of problems with DOC files.