A Mandate to Be Cheap
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Okay so it could be companies from which size roughly?
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Might I suggest a new thread.
We are venturing into an area that @scottalanmiller and I were talking about at MangoLassi Con - i think it deserves it's own topic.
it can be either specifically about XOA and pricing or more generic if @olivier doesn't want to be that specific on a thread.
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I don't care
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@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Okay so it could be companies from which size roughly?
Well, it's not about size. It's about how they view IT and their business. A one man shop isn't enough for a critical organization. Even the smallest company might take themselves seriously have have more than one IT guy. This is why we often say that MSPs / ITSPs are the only way for the SMB market to have IT. Having internal staff when you have so little need for it is crazy. Too much money, too little value.
http://www.smbitjournal.com/2013/02/the-smallest-it-department/
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@scottalanmiller So this kind of shop aren't doing IT in their core business. So why not externalize it? Far cheaper than having a dedicated IT guy.
I mean, roughly the idea is:
- externalize everything that's not your core business
- internalize everything that's your core business
Here in France, there is very few SMB's with one IT guy. On what I see on the field, those in these case are using service providers, that's all.
I wonder, is it a common case elsewhere to have a dedicated IT guy for a small company selling shoes?
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@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller So this kind of shop aren't doing IT in their core business. So why not externalize it? Far cheaper than having a dedicated IT guy.
No one knows what crazy logic these companies have. But I've been preaching that any shop under three full time IT people is too small to even discuss having internal staff for many years.
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@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
I wonder, is it a common case elsewhere to have a dedicated IT guy for a small company selling shoes?
Yes, nearly always you'd find that. Every business either has their own IT or nothing at all and things don't work and are totally insecure and broken. MSPs are everywhere... but make up far, far less than 50% of the market. Internal IT rules because businesses are not smart, are taught to fear the concept of external services and because business skills are not taught here.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@olivier said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller So this kind of shop aren't doing IT in their core business. So why not externalize it? Far cheaper than having a dedicated IT guy.
No one knows what crazy logic these companies have. But I've been preaching that any shop under three full time IT people is too small to even discuss having internal staff for many years.
None the less they still exist, and they still have onsite servers, and they still want services like the ones provided in XOA.
So considering all the math shown above, it's often not worth the cost of $800/yr until there is a problem, and since XOA isn't mission critical (we'll debate that later), it's rarely if ever an end of the world situation, so the onsite IT person works on it, or simply scraps it and rebuilds it. right?
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@scottalanmiller said
Internal IT rules because businesses are not smart, are taught to fear the concept of external services and because business skills are not taught here.
Most MSPs suck....they really do.
I've had a tech on site valued by one such MSP at £800 a day. Trying to fix a wifi network they installed, have maintained for years and looked after.
Their documentation was non existent, their tech spent most of the time working on other customer calls yet still wanted to bill for an entire day's work.
Why would a business owner choose an MSP when most MSPs are yeehaw cowboys who are out of their control a lot of the time.
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@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Most MSPs suck....they really do.
So does most internal IT. Far easier to cycle through, get references on and stick with MSPs, though.
Both only suck because SMBs allow them to.
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@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Why would a business owner choose an MSP when most MSPs are yeehaw cowboys who are out of their control a lot of the time.
Why would they when most internal IT is the same way? It's the same pool of talent. One is not naturally better than the other. One is just a better way to hire the same talent.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Why would a business owner choose an MSP when most MSPs are yeehaw cowboys who are out of their control a lot of the time.
Why would they when most internal IT is the same way? It's the same pool of talent. One is not naturally better than the other. One is just a better way to hire the same talent.
Because one is a machine with sales teams designed to part you with your cash in epic ways. The other is someone on their own where the motivation is to do a good job and take care of the environment.
There is good and bad in both camps but I've seen so many cowboy MSPs where as before I would say the odds are the MSP would do a better job, I'm reversing course on that decision and saying you should just avoid them now, too many reseller partnerships, too much rubbish going on.
Many businesses don't have the in house expressive to manage the relationship or the service with an MSP.
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@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The other is someone on their own where the motivation is to do a good job and take care of the environment.
Why is this one motivated by doing a good job when they are hard to fire and the other not motivated to do a good job when they are easy to fire? Sorry, but no, internal IT is not motivated in this way any moreso than anyone else. Neither logic nor observation in the real world support this. Even in the enterprise, there is a reason that top skills are often brought in from ITSPs rather than internal.
This is one of those myths that actually stems from the "sales" aspects of the internal staff. Remember just because they don't have a sales team doesn't mean that they don't do sales, too.
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@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
There is good and bad in both camps but I've seen so many cowboy MSPs where as before I would say the odds are the MSP would do a better job, I'm reversing course on that decision and saying you should just avoid them now, too many reseller partnerships, too much rubbish going on.
You get reseller agreements with internal IT staff, too. Everything you say about MSPs is exactly what we see with internal staff. Bottom line... it's the same people. The only difference is an intelligent way to staff or one that doesn't make any sense.
These are what I consider the facts of the case (I say that because it is opinion)...
- Average IT staff is terrible.
- MSPs and Internal staff are the same pool of resources.
- You have to filter heavily to get good people, or hire really well.
- The MSP model is viable for SMBs, internal staff is not. Scale alone makes this a necessity.
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I don't disagree that nearly all MSPs are terrible, but it is only a reflection of the market. MSPs are only as bad as customers allow them to be, in reality. And they keep getting hired and retained. But everything you describe is the internal IT market as well, but without the benefits of MSP management, resources and scale.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
But everything you describe is the internal IT market as well, but without the benefits of MSP management, resources and scale.
The difference is, the MSP is harder to break with then internal IT in a lot of areas. Combine that with the management/resources/scale the damage tends to be far greater to a business.
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@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
The difference is, the MSP is harder to break with then internal IT in a lot of areas. Combine that with the management/resources/scale the damage tends to be far greater to a business.
How is that possible? In the US there is nothing of the sort. Internal IT is hard to control, MSPs you always have total control. Always. Internal IT is the greater risk by orders of magnitude.
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@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Internal IT rules because businesses are not smart, are taught to fear the concept of external services and because business skills are not taught here...No one knows what crazy logic these companies have. But I've been preaching that any shop under three full time IT people is too small to even discuss having internal staff for many years.
@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Why would a business owner choose an MSP when most MSPs are yeehaw cowboys who are out of their control a lot of the time.
Yes, that's generally been my experience, and the experience of many of my friends. Well, I haven't experienced cowboys, but neither have I been satisfied. I guess I'm just not smart
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@Carnival-Boy said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
@scottalanmiller said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Internal IT rules because businesses are not smart, are taught to fear the concept of external services and because business skills are not taught here...No one knows what crazy logic these companies have. But I've been preaching that any shop under three full time IT people is too small to even discuss having internal staff for many years.
@Breffni-Potter said in A Mandate to Be Cheap:
Why would a business owner choose an MSP when most MSPs are yeehaw cowboys who are out of their control a lot of the time.
Yes, that's generally been my experience, and the experience of many of my friends. Well, I haven't experienced cowboys, but neither have I been satisfied. I guess I'm just not smart
What I've found the most is that the worse an MSP is, the more likely that no one will replace them.
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In the nicest possible way. I do not have the hours in the day to go back and forth on this because we just end up going round in circles with back and forth's.
I've seen it happen so so many times that I now hold the belief that most MSPs on the market should be avoided, not embraced or used.
Do they have a place? Absolutely but for the most part they are bad, finding the good ones is nigh impossible.
Is that the fault of businesses with no technical knowledge being taken advantage of? Sure but where do they get that technical knowledge from? Where do they get the management inside to handle the relationship.
