SMB resources on the move
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
... so as not to remain in the stagnant mindset of "you will have on-premises servers for file serves, AD, and Exchange."
That should not have been a mindset either ever, or for a very, very long time.
There is a staggering amount of admins/providers I've heard that from though. When I ask why, I always got pretty much the same answer of "it's just easier to manage that way". When I talk about the huge cost to the customer I typically got a "well that's just the cost of doing business".
No, you've heard it from intern level SMB wannabes like you see posting on SW all of the time asking questions that were answered minutes before in another thread and are, twice a day, every day. These aren't admins, they are people alone in tiny shops trying to inflate their self importance because they are embarrassed by the combination of unimportant environment and lack of skills to make even that run well. They call themselves admins and give themselves cool titles to compensate. But the vast majority of SMBs with REAL IT staff haven't been looking at this kind of set for a very long time.
Sure, tons of hobby businesses run poorly and hire unskilled people who pretend to be IT people do this stuff to scam businesses (often those getting paid to deploy these solutions, they represent big ticket ways to make money on small time clients) but it is sales people putting in these solutions, not IT / consulting staff.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
... so as not to remain in the stagnant mindset of "you will have on-premises servers for file serves, AD, and Exchange."
That should not have been a mindset either ever, or for a very, very long time.
There is a staggering amount of admins/providers I've heard that from though. When I ask why, I always got pretty much the same answer of "it's just easier to manage that way". When I talk about the huge cost to the customer I typically got a "well that's just the cost of doing business when you hire salespeople instead of IT staff".
FTFY
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
Right, so was I. That's exactly what I was warning against that you never, ever, ever do.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
Right, so was I. That's exactly what I was warning against that you never, ever, ever do.
Well I'll be honest, I've never even looked into doing things that way. So I don't know any of the shortcomings of doing something that way. That's why I'm asking for community advice on some of these topics.
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Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
Right, so was I. That's exactly what I was warning against that you never, ever, ever do.
Well I'll be honest, I've never even looked into doing things that way. So I don't know any of the shortcomings of doing something that way. That's why I'm asking for community advice on some of these topics.
Dangerous bundling. Giving a vendor that does one thing too much power. Same reason that you never bundle DNS, registration services and hosting together - always three separate providers.
Email isn't nearly as bad as those, but there is no serious business email hoster that does web hosting. There could be, in theory, but there isn't. It's just not a market product that exists.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
Lol obviously I wouldn't want to sell myself as a VAR. I'm just trying to find ways to save SMBs money while still making the environment highly manageable.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
Lol obviously I wouldn't want to sell myself as a VAR. I'm just trying to find ways to save SMBs money while still making the environment highly manageable.
I understand, my point was that in the other thread it was mentioned that it was thought that we were exaggerating that people actually pretend to be consultants while really being a VAR, that the VAR side really influences them to fleece customers, etc. Yet this whole thread is you looking for solutions to exactly that problem... all the customers you know are getting fleeced in this way.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
Right, so was I. That's exactly what I was warning against that you never, ever, ever do.
Well I'll be honest, I've never even looked into doing things that way. So I don't know any of the shortcomings of doing something that way. That's why I'm asking for community advice on some of these topics.
Dangerous bundling. Giving a vendor that does one thing too much power. Same reason that you never bundle DNS, registration services and hosting together - always three separate providers.
there is no serious business email hoster that does web hosting. There could be, in theory
Probably why things like that look good on the surface. Are there any specifics that you've experienced or heard about which makes them poor in email handling? Like holding you for ransom when they set quotas, randomly purging aged emails which aren't really that old (31 days), etc...
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
- Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
I'm confused. Yes they need central email. Of course it should be hosted, that's been the case for over a decade. ANd no, you never, ever get it from your domain host. You never bundle services like that. And no hoster offers enterprise email.
I was thinking of something like this, not necessarily from GoDaddy, but just the idea.
Right, so was I. That's exactly what I was warning against that you never, ever, ever do.
Well I'll be honest, I've never even looked into doing things that way. So I don't know any of the shortcomings of doing something that way. That's why I'm asking for community advice on some of these topics.
Dangerous bundling. Giving a vendor that does one thing too much power. Same reason that you never bundle DNS, registration services and hosting together - always three separate providers.
there is no serious business email hoster that does web hosting. There could be, in theory
Probably why things like that look good on the surface. Are there any specifics that you've experienced or heard about which makes them poor in email handling? Like holding you for ransom when they set quotas, randomly purging aged emails which aren't really that old (31 days), etc...
Yes, they lock people in, block them from important features, take away control, etc. The protections and assumptions about Office 365 disappear and you are on your own. They are NOT an O365 partner, they are a reseller using O365 to power their own solution. So you can't get Microsoft help, you can't move to another partner... you are "owned" by GoDaddy and they aren't a business class company. You can't use GoDaddy services for any business function except registration services, which don't require quality hosting. GoDaddy is not a business vendor, they shouldn't even really come up as a discussion point. You would never host a website with them, and that's far more their business than email.
Unlike web, which you can move in a few minutes if a host tries to hold you ransom or lock you in, email is partially storage. So if a vendor isn't flexible and transparent and plays the "owns you" extortion game, they have all the leverage. You have to really be careful who you use for your storage because there is no easy way out once you commit to that.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
Lol obviously I wouldn't want to sell myself as a VAR. I'm just trying to find ways to save SMBs money while still making the environment highly manageable.
I understand, my point was that in the other thread it was mentioned that it was thought that we were exaggerating that people actually pretend to be consultants while really being a VAR, that the VAR side really influences them to fleece customers, etc. Yet this whole thread is you looking for solutions to exactly that problem... all the customers you know are getting fleeced in this way.
Maybe it's just early but the first half of your post suggests I'm just pretending and really I'm trying to be a VAR. But then the second half suggests I'm trying to help them, because they are getting fleeced.
Maybe a better question would be "I have a business of 10-15 people. They haven't added any new people in 5 years so scaling is slow. What does their network look like as far as on-premises and/or cloud equipment,services,etc? I didn't ask it that way because every network is somewhat similar but a little different, and I didn't want to ask the age old question of "I'm setting up a new network, what should it look like?" Cause I like hearing that much as much as "What's the best AV? Why not RAID5?". Now I'm rambling...
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
Lol obviously I wouldn't want to sell myself as a VAR. I'm just trying to find ways to save SMBs money while still making the environment highly manageable.
I understand, my point was that in the other thread it was mentioned that it was thought that we were exaggerating that people actually pretend to be consultants while really being a VAR, that the VAR side really influences them to fleece customers, etc. Yet this whole thread is you looking for solutions to exactly that problem... all the customers you know are getting fleeced in this way.
Maybe it's just early but the first half of your post suggests I'm just pretending and really I'm trying to be a VAR. But then the second half suggests I'm trying to help them, because they are getting fleeced.
Not what I meant. My point was that customers with fewer than twenty users, with onsite AD and Exchange (especially Exchange) are normally the result of VARs fleecing them. You are looking for a solution because you are finding so many VARs doing this to people.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
"I have a business of 10-15 people. They haven't added any new people in 5 years so scaling is slow."
From a scaling perspective, though in terms of months, not years. If a company is growing so quickly that they need to change system design, they are also making money so fast that they can afford to. But if the growth stops or turns around, you don't want to have invested in something that is expensive to purchase and maintain and might lock them down when it is not needed.
Moving from a workground to AD, for example, is trivial. Going back, is not so trivial and the AD costs are already sunk.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
Funny, this conversation is exactly the counter to the 9-5 thread. These solutions that you want to replace are literally, in nearly every case, only existing in situations where someone brings in a VAR masquerading as a consultant, who sells things to make the vendor happy even though they are terrible solutions for the customer and are so obviously so that it's pathetic that the customer doesn't know enough IT to bust them.
Lol obviously I wouldn't want to sell myself as a VAR. I'm just trying to find ways to save SMBs money while still making the environment highly manageable.
I understand, my point was that in the other thread it was mentioned that it was thought that we were exaggerating that people actually pretend to be consultants while really being a VAR, that the VAR side really influences them to fleece customers, etc. Yet this whole thread is you looking for solutions to exactly that problem... all the customers you know are getting fleeced in this way.
Maybe it's just early but the first half of your post suggests I'm just pretending and really I'm trying to be a VAR. But then the second half suggests I'm trying to help them, because they are getting fleeced.
Not what I meant. My point was that customers with fewer than twenty users, with onsite AD and Exchange (especially Exchange) are normally the result of VARs fleecing them. You are looking for a solution because you are finding so many VARs doing this to people.
Thanks for the clarity. That makes me feel better. I felt like a piece of sh*t for a minute for even asking the question that I really didn't know much about.
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@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
"I have a business of 10-15 people. They haven't added any new people in 5 years so scaling is slow."
But if the growth stops or turns around, you don't want to have invested in something that is expensive to purchase and maintain and might lock them down when it is not needed.
Good point. I've saw too many admins buy something "that would be good for company growth over the next 5 years". I really don't agree with that mentality because it's not realistic to plan for something that far in the future. Like a company buying a $20k SAN for 50 users because they expect to have 1500 users over the next 3 years.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
"I have a business of 10-15 people. What does their network look like as far as on-premises and/or cloud equipment,services,etc?"
Today, a well designed system for the "average use cases" at this scale, assuming a lot of things including good WAN connectivity and no special case applications that break everything...
- No central logins and/or Azure AD if it is already paid for.
- Office 365 or Google Apps or similar for most services.
- SaaS applications across the board
And that's it. No servers at all, no storage at all except what is part of the existing productivity packages and all apps are off premises. No servers, no colocation, no IaaS, no systems to maintain.
Tons of exceptions to this, but this is the majority use case when done well. It's the median average of new, proper solutions. Old companies with cruft not withstanding.
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@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
@scottalanmiller said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
"I have a business of 10-15 people. They haven't added any new people in 5 years so scaling is slow."
But if the growth stops or turns around, you don't want to have invested in something that is expensive to purchase and maintain and might lock them down when it is not needed.
Good point. I've saw too many admins buy something "that would be good for company growth over the next 5 years". I really don't agree with that mentality because it's not realistic to plan for something that far in the future. Like a company buying a $20k SAN for 50 users because they expect to have 1500 users over the next 3 years.
And one of the dirty secrets of business is that there is no such thing as a prediction... there is just "lying through your teeth to scam investors". Companies can barely predict two weeks out, not a year. Never five years. If they could, they'd be worth anything with that knowledge. Even if the CEO tells you they will grow, don't believe him, that's crazy. He's just guessing and/or bluffing. And even if you did know exactly how the business would grow, you don't know how technology will change. So even perfect five year planning from your business doesn't give you enough info to know how to approach IT today for five years out.
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@DustinB3403 said in SMB resources on the move:
@BBigford said in SMB resources on the move:
I was driving home from work last night, thinking about how to better serve the SMB market. More on the side of micro businesses under 20 people. A few questions I was processing and expanding on:
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Do they really need servers? You could buy a simple NAS, or use a cloud storage provider like OneDrive for Business, Dropbox for Business, etc.
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Do they need a domain? If so, they could use something like Azure for AD.
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Do they need central email? If they don't need central email like Exchange, but want their email to appear like a business email, with their domain. Whoever is hosting their domain, usually provides email services at an extra cost.
What are your thoughts on some of those displacements? Thinking about this from, say, an MSP perspective. Not in-house IT. I'm thinking of how to better serve those micro businesses so as not to remain in the stagnant mindset of "you will have on-premises servers for file serves, AD, and Exchange."
I would use Zentyal for all of the above, you can purchase a server for really cheap. A 20 person office is right there on the cusp of "needing" AD.
You get everything baked into one open source package that a business would need, for free (unless you wanted the supported version).
And a server for Micro-Businesses like this would be super cheap.
I haven't used Zentyal before (though I think eBox was easier to pronounce... lol. Still not sure how to pronounce Zentyal... zent-yall?) but that looks really cool. Is it a replacement for Microsoft Small Business Server then? I haven't used SBS since 2011 and thought it was being deprecated at the time. Or did Microsoft replace SBS with Server Essentials? :S
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Zentyall can do a lot of things, AD included.... For an SMB that expressed a firm desire for centralized authentication, I'd go with some form of Linux based AD, such as Zentyal or a DIY solution like Samba 4...
However, if they're already paying for O365 and they get the AzureAD with it... why not use it instead?
