Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
You can try to "do the right thing" as @BRRABill mentioned, but you really have to ask - is it the right thing? If they just ask you to sell them something, why assume they don't know what they want? of course as IT people, we know that 9/10 they really don't, but it's not our job to correct them.
That's where I disagree. I think it IS our job.
It absolutely is not. You are not their IT department in this example, nor are you the CEO, nor are you the board of directors. They determine what their goals are and what your job is. If they ask you to be a VAR and you agree to be their VAR and try to act as a consultant because you feel that their goals are wrong, that's not your job, plain and simple. Nothing makes it your job. Nothing at all. IT isn't the gods of business with a rule book of what companies should and should not want that we get to dictate to their owners. If the owners don't want advice, it's specifically your job NOT to give it to them, or to tell them that you won't take them as customers. Period.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If someone is looking for a VAR, nothing wrong with being the VAR. If they want a VAR and get a consultant, that's not good either. Why someone would want that, normally is for bad reasons, but it is their own reasons.
this is an interesting point that you have brought up before. I'm not sure that SMB typically go in search of a consultant vs a VAR - and this is a pretty big rub. I think that most of us by know realize that the SMBs rarely know what they want or way they want it. We realize that they probably really do NEED a consultant to design the correct solution for them, but they don't understand this (because they aren't doing business, instead they are playing at it, as Scott would say).
And as a result, they wind up using the folks that have a team to "help them".... when that team is really designed to help the VAR / vendor.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Talk about unethical. Knowingly selling someone something they don't need, I feel, is unethical. Though it sounds like it is also the definition of sales.
This is totally wrong. If you go into a shoe store and say you want a shoe it's not unethical for them to sell it to you. It's in no way, ever, the job of a salesman to care if something is good or bad for you, or the "right fit." They have an ethical responsibility to sell, there is zero ethical responsibility to you. Zero. In fact, refusing to sell to you based on their own opinions is very questionable certainly to their employer but ultimately to you as well.
Imagine if every transaction in your life your needs and motives were questioned and anyone that didn't like you, didn't agree with your desires or didn't like your goals would simply refuse to sell you food, clothes, a house, tools, movies, etc.
What if Netflix blocked movies that they didn't think were good for you? What if Chevy denied you a car that they didn't think was fuel efficient enough for your needs?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
For me, personally, people have come to me because I have helped others, and they want the help and advice I can give. They WANT me to say "no that's not what you need" or "hey if you switch to this, it'll give you more features and be half the price".
Then they will ask for advice, not ask to buy something. If they don't want your opinion, they will ask for the product.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
You can try to "do the right thing" as @BRRABill mentioned, but you really have to ask - is it the right thing? If they just ask you to sell them something, why assume they don't know what they want? of course as IT people, we know that 9/10 they really don't, but it's not our job to correct them.
That's where I disagree. I think it IS our job.
Talk about unethical. Knowingly selling someone something they don't need, I feel, is unethical. Though it sounds like it is also the definition of sales.
For me, personally, people have come to me because I have helped others, and they want the help and advice I can give. They WANT me to say "no that's not what you need" or "hey if you switch to this, it'll give you more features and be half the price".
Am I a VAR? Sure. I have no problems with it. I'm not pegging myself as anything.
If they really want you to tell them No that's now what you need - then they should hire you to do that. You shouldn't do that for free.
Nor should you do that if they don't want it.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
If they didn't come to you for advice and you refuse to sell them what they need, that's kinda weird, right? Hi, we want to buy something from your "store". But you say "sorry, I don't agree with your desires, you can only buy what I think is right for you."
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
You can try to "do the right thing" as @BRRABill mentioned, but you really have to ask - is it the right thing? If they just ask you to sell them something, why assume they don't know what they want? of course as IT people, we know that 9/10 they really don't, but it's not our job to correct them.
That's where I disagree. I think it IS our job.
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Talk about unethical. Knowingly selling someone something they don't need, I feel, is unethical. Though it sounds like it is also the definition of sales.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
But they did not come to you for discovery and research on what is needed.
Even more so, they didn't come to you to have their decision questioned on if they need a server or not.
That's obvious in the case of the example non-profit because you say they are still arguing with you over it.Arguing, definitely.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
If they didn't come to you for advice and you refuse to sell them what they need, that's kinda weird, right? Hi, we want to buy something from your "store". But you say "sorry, I don't agree with your desires, you can only buy what I think is right for you."
LOL I just think of going to Best Buy - I want to buy a 100 in TV, I'm sorry sir, how large is the room you are putting this in? 10 x 10, OMG that room is way to small for this TV, you should buy the 65 in TV.. lol
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@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
No one comes to me just to buy a server, so I am never in this position, but if I was, I would tell said church person, that they have no idea what they need and they need to hire someone to actually figure that out. Me or another company I don't care, but hire someone who knows wtf they are doing to make sure you are not getting jipped.
I would too, but that's because I'm not a VAR or a reseller of any sort
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
Who are you to say any of that is true? You would have to ask several questions, none that have anything to do with the server itself to come close to knowing that's true. So you start your relations as follows:
Customer walks in:
Customer : Hi I want to buy a server, here are the specs.
You: oh hold on a second, do you really need a server?
Customer: yes
You: are you sure? how do you know?
Customer: because I know what servers are and I know I need one.really, how could it have started much different from that? How did you learn they are a three person shop? You're questioning their server purchase without other information first just seems odd.
now if it went more like this:
Customer: Hey I'm a three person shop, we have 150 GB of data on my laptop that I want to share with the other two, I've heard I need a server, what do you think?
Now you can question them, but really, now you should also be on the clock.
Just look at typical SW posts. They go like the former and people get pretty upset if you start to question them. But on SW, there is a context that questioning is the purpose. In a VAR, there is not.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
No one comes to me just to buy a server, so I am never in this position, but if I was, I would tell said church person, that they have no idea what they need and they need to hire someone to actually figure that out. Me or another company I don't care, but hire someone who knows wtf they are doing to make sure you are not getting jipped.
JB, what do you do when said church person tells you they don't care about that.. that they just want you to sell them a server? Would you?
Or even better, when they say "yeah I'd llke to hire you"
Then you say "OK. Tell me about yourself."
They say "We are 3 people, with about 1GB of data stored"
You say "You don't need a server. Get Office 365."Done.
I can do that in 5 minutes without needing to charge them hundreds of dollars in consulting fees.
That's not five minutes at all. Even the smallest business is going to be at least an hour. There are so many questions to ask. And you can't give expensive consulting away when the ONLY purpose is to tell people not to do business with you, the business that they came to you to do.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
No one comes to me just to buy a server, so I am never in this position, but if I was, I would tell said church person, that they have no idea what they need and they need to hire someone to actually figure that out. Me or another company I don't care, but hire someone who knows wtf they are doing to make sure you are not getting jipped.
JB, what do you do when said church person tells you they don't care about that.. that they just want you to sell them a server? Would you?
Or even better, when they say "yeah I'd llke to hire you"
Then you say "OK. Tell me about yourself."
They say "We are 3 people, with about 1GB of data stored"
You say "You don't need a server. Get Office 365."Done.
I can do that in 5 minutes without needing to charge them hundreds of dollars in consulting fees.
That is impossible to do in 5 minutes. You just screwed them because you did not do proper discovery.
Yeah, perhaps that was too dramatic an example.
The problem is, like the affiliate thing in this thread, the examples on one side are always super extreme... like "it's only five minutes" or "it's only $5." But the reality is that the consulting should be more than you could make on a server for them, and the affiliate program likely doubles your income within the scope. It's moderately big numbers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
Who are you to say any of that is true? You would have to ask several questions, none that have anything to do with the server itself to come close to knowing that's true. So you start your relations as follows:
Customer walks in:
Customer : Hi I want to buy a server, here are the specs.
You: oh hold on a second, do you really need a server?
Customer: yes
You: are you sure? how do you know?
Customer: because I know what servers are and I know I need one.really, how could it have started much different from that? How did you learn they are a three person shop? You're questioning their server purchase without other information first just seems odd.
now if it went more like this:
Customer: Hey I'm a three person shop, we have 150 GB of data on my laptop that I want to share with the other two, I've heard I need a server, what do you think?
Now you can question them, but really, now you should also be on the clock.
Just look at typical SW posts. They go like the former and people get pretty upset if you start to question them. But on SW, there is a context that questioning is the purpose. In a VAR, there is not.
yeah when they get upset, we just ask - why are you here then? You already made your decision, why are you having problems now.. you already answered all of these questions before you purchased anything, didn't you?
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So......
Being a VAR is fine, and ethical, and you can still help the customer. But the world knows the system, and thus the customer should know you are giving (potentially) non-impartial advice.
Absolutely. The VAR is totally ethical and important and knowing that they are a reseller tells a customer everything that they need to know about how to properly interact with them.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I can't help but think in the real world case that I AM doing some level of consulting, AND some level of VARing. They need me to research and discover their needs and help them navigate options, but at the same time I already know they are going to end up buying something like a NAS one way or the other.
This statement is a great example of how the system turns you into a VAR. How does "going to buy a NAS" ever come up as a common, expected result? And how does any single NAS vendor come up as the single, almost always the answer? You have two layers of "this isn't how consulting would work" at least here. Because if doing real consulting... NAS would be not uncommon, but anything but expected. And that a single NAS vendor would be the right answer would also not be very common. Maybe one is 50% of the time, maybe. But not even that, in my experience.
Only a VAR thinks in terms of "the answer is nearly always the same." The answer only looks that way when you approach it from a VAR perspective. A consultant wouldn't see the world in cookie cutters. It's the affiliate programs that create the illusion of one size fits all. And it is the VAR emotions that make it seem reasonable to think that the consulting is a farce and that the same basic answer always results.
If you approach this as a consultant without the sales angle, you quickly see those things evaporate. There is no means of having one main solution.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Sure I could purify myself and never use affiliates, no skin off my back, but the reasons for doing so are weak at best. I don't feel any particular obligations or drive to push one thing over anything else, you can claim this is impossible all you want but it's true for me and it's disclosed if ever used.
You say no skin off your back, but try to downplay the pretty significant issues that we've brought up. As long as you are disclosing, nothing wrong with that. But you are not acting like it's trivial, you keep acting like it is pretty dramatic. Which is exactly how we see it too, non-trivial. So that makes sense to us.
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What further discussion is there to this?
This was at 400 posts at 5pm when I left the office, it's now 11pm and what has been achieved? Has any progress been made?
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@JaredBusch said
If it is your job, you should be getting paid.
In order to get paid, you have to bill people.
In order to bill people you have to not do things for free.Agree 100%. I mean, a 5 minute discussion is OK, I think, but anything more needs billing.
NO one said sell them something they do not need. It was stated that they came to you for a server. So sell them the server they asked for, verify the basics, yes. You are a VAR, that is your job.
So if a 3 person non-profit church comes in and wants a $5K server. No questions asked you just sell it to them? Not me. Because I know they do not know what they need. They know the term server, but have no idea what it means, and what it is for. And how for 1/100th or less of the cost they can have a much better solution.
Who are you to say any of that is true? You would have to ask several questions, none that have anything to do with the server itself to come close to knowing that's true. So you start your relations as follows:
Customer walks in:
Customer : Hi I want to buy a server, here are the specs.
You: oh hold on a second, do you really need a server?
Customer: yes
You: are you sure? how do you know?
Customer: because I know what servers are and I know I need one.really, how could it have started much different from that? How did you learn they are a three person shop? You're questioning their server purchase without other information first just seems odd.
now if it went more like this:
Customer: Hey I'm a three person shop, we have 150 GB of data on my laptop that I want to share with the other two, I've heard I need a server, what do you think?
Now you can question them, but really, now you should also be on the clock.
Just look at typical SW posts. They go like the former and people get pretty upset if you start to question them. But on SW, there is a context that questioning is the purpose. In a VAR, there is not.
yeah when they get upset, we just ask - why are you here then? You already made your decision, why are you having problems now.. you already answered all of these questions before you purchased anything, didn't you?
Right, often they are hoping that the common social convention of never upsetting the vendors, resellers and IT people not doing their jobs will work in their favour so that they can just get a bunch of pats on the back or something. Then when it turns out that people actually are questioning their decision and looking much deeper than they did they get upset and what they thought was going to be a circle jerk of unmitigated support turns into a shame fest of "didn't you even put thought into this huge project before committing to it and why are you asking us after it is too late instead of yesterday before you made the decision".
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
If a VAR is a salesman who tries to sell as much as possible, oversell, and pushes only their things, but I do none of that, how can I still be a VAR? You can't define a VAR as a car salesman, then start applying the term to people who are not car salesman.
A VAR is ANYONE that sells while providing some additional amount of advice or insight.
If you sell, you are a reseller (sell = resell, affiliate, kickback, anything involving money from the vendor.)
If you add services to it, you are a VAR.
Car salesmen are VARs because they normally offer maintenance services and such. They are more VAR than most IT VARs, actually.
