What Are You Doing Right Now
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@BRRABill said:
I get that a lot when people ask about a Mac for their kids.
You get what?
Actually a Mac doesn't have this problem (other than - why is a MAC more expensive than a Windows machine). Apple only has one line of laptops/desktops/etc. And they are all expensive. Apple doesn't make low end shit.
Or they ONLY make low end shit. It's the high end that Apple is missing. Just because they only make one thing doesn't make it high end. Nor does that it is expensive.
You think MACs are low end shit? You feel they have less quality (in hardware) the most business class tier 1 providers?
They make the best low end shit around! At least they actually support their products, which is really what you're paying for. Seriously, even a Mac Pro could only be considered a mid-range machine for Video editing, CAD work, etc.
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@dafyre said:
DAY 1
- Unless you do this purely after and additionally to all of your own research, you are easily led astray. How do you oversee this process if you do not already have the answers?
There is so much involved in IT that it can be quite overwhelming, especially for someone who is still getting their feet wet in the business. Despite the team diversity, there may not be someone who has all the answers. This is why, at the time, we asked our sales reps from various vendors what we were looking at if we wanted to do our projects.
Nothing wrong with outside help. But that help should come from IT people, not from sales people. Sales people are not your friends and not there to help you. If the sheep don't have a shepard, you hire one or get a llama, you don't just throw the sheep directly to the wolves. The need for outside help is universal, the need to get it from people who are on your side and not your enemy is also universal.
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@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
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@dafyre said:
At the time, places like Spiceworks were unknown to us. So we took the answers that we were given by HP, Dell, and EMC, and went back to verify the information we were given -- outside of CDWG and its partner channels. For the business case we were given, the HP solution met both our budget and provided what we were wanting.
How did you verify in a way that didn't require you to have access to all of the answers without needing the salespeople? That's one of the problems. The ability to verify negates any need for using the salespeople. So if you have the ability to verify the issue doesn't come up.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
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@dafyre said:
DAY 2
In the IT world it is still easy, but often times will require more effort in both researching the Myriad of products and multiple ways of doing things. Take storage. There's SAN, NAS, DAS, Local, Block, SMB, NFS, Sync, Replicated, RAID, and a whole myriad of other things to look at and take into account. No one IT person is going to know all of this up front if they have never looked at anything other than local storage before. So you research and ask your sales reps to research, and they can bring you back options and experts to talk to about all of these different things and provide you a vector (or verification) for your own research.
No, you would never bring in a salesperson to this process. Their only job is to mislead you. Their only one. They have no other job. They know that you are going to get something, they have to convince you to:
- Buy something rather than getting something free.
- Get it from them.
- Maybe get another one, lots of them or bigger ones.
- Get whatever one has a special promotion.
There is no situation where the salesperson would be a healthy part of the process you describe. In a case where you need extra guidance, which is super common in the situation you mention, you bring in a storage consultant. The number one problem with storage solutions today is salespeople taking advantage of this exact scenario. It's the prime example used how exactly the scenario you describe ends up in customers getting put not only in a bad financial situation but a dangerous technical one as well. It's this scenario in particular that prompted most of these discussions.
Yes, you do your own research. But if you don't feel that is enough, the next step can not be a salesperson. You have to not only know enough to make buying decisions on your own but enough to do that as well as to fend off confusing and misleading information and pressure from salespeople before you should be willing to bring in the "wolf" to see the flock.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
Oh sure, they are HP salespeople, that's part of the process. We are an HP partner, for example. We can get HP-paid sales people anytime that we need. It's a sales position called pre-sales engineering. It's one of the most important sales roles and often the highest paid one. I'm not suggesting that they were CDW sales people, just that they were sales people.
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@Minion-Queen said:
@scottalanmiller is also the only one I know that has had the issues with a Mac or Windows10 desktop that I have ever heard of. I have 2 MacBook Pro's and a Mac Mini and am actually quite happy with them. Of course I also use them the way they were meant to be used.
It's not just problems. They just weren't very good.
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@Dashrender said:
You think MACs are low end shit? You feel they have less quality (in hardware) the most business class tier 1 providers?
Absolutely. I think they are a bit lower in quality than tier one business gear from HP, Dell, Asus, etc. They aren't bad, but they aren't high end either. More of the middle. But priced like they are the best, which they are very far from. They are slow, heavy, limited, etc. They are roughly like high end Chromebooks in features and power but like really cheap ones in reliability.
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@travisdh1 said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@BRRABill said:
I get that a lot when people ask about a Mac for their kids.
You get what?
Actually a Mac doesn't have this problem (other than - why is a MAC more expensive than a Windows machine). Apple only has one line of laptops/desktops/etc. And they are all expensive. Apple doesn't make low end shit.
Or they ONLY make low end shit. It's the high end that Apple is missing. Just because they only make one thing doesn't make it high end. Nor does that it is expensive.
You think MACs are low end shit? You feel they have less quality (in hardware) the most business class tier 1 providers?
They make the best low end shit around! At least they actually support their products, which is really what you're paying for. Seriously, even a Mac Pro could only be considered a mid-range machine for Video editing, CAD work, etc.
Yes, REALLY good low end stuff
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
At the time, places like Spiceworks were unknown to us. So we took the answers that we were given by HP, Dell, and EMC, and went back to verify the information we were given -- outside of CDWG and its partner channels. For the business case we were given, the HP solution met both our budget and provided what we were wanting.
How did you verify in a way that didn't require you to have access to all of the answers without needing the salespeople? That's one of the problems. The ability to verify negates any need for using the salespeople. So if you have the ability to verify the issue doesn't come up.
The sales people were to point us in the direction of various products. We then did our own research which a lot of times will lead to similar products from other vendors... Just like when you go to a Ford Dealership, and like the Ford Focus. You might also check out the Chevy Dealership down the road and see their Chevy Spark and like that one, so you compare the two. If you need to speak with the engineers, just talk with the mechanics.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
Oh sure, they are HP salespeople, that's part of the process. We are an HP partner, for example. We can get HP-paid sales people anytime that we need. It's a sales position called pre-sales engineering. It's one of the most important sales roles and often the highest paid one. I'm not suggesting that they were CDW sales people, just that they were sales people.
Learn something new every day. What mattered to us is that they were able to answer our questions on the spot with very little of that "We'll get back to you" type stuff. (This was closer to us pulling the trigger and getting the equipment, mind you).
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@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
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@dafyre said:
The sales people were to point us in the direction of various products. We then did our own research which a lot of times will lead to similar products from other vendors... Just like when you go to a Ford Dealership, and like the Ford Focus. You might also check out the Chevy Dealership down the road and see their Chevy Spark and like that one, so you compare the two. If you need to speak with the engineers, just talk with the mechanics.
The problems are....
- Resellers don't have mechanics.
- They only direct you towards products and product types that make money.
- They only tell you about products that they sell.
- They aren't IT people and have no idea which products that they have would meet your needs.
Remember, these aren't IT people. So they have knowledge of "what they sell" but they don't know how it would fit into IT. They don't work in IT, their guidance as to what to look into would be only marginally better than getting that advice from the cashier at the grocery store.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
The Experts being @NTG, right?
Our problem was that we didn't like any of the alternatives at the time.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
Oh sure, they are HP salespeople, that's part of the process. We are an HP partner, for example. We can get HP-paid sales people anytime that we need. It's a sales position called pre-sales engineering. It's one of the most important sales roles and often the highest paid one. I'm not suggesting that they were CDW sales people, just that they were sales people.
Learn something new every day. What mattered to us is that they were able to answer our questions on the spot with very little of that "We'll get back to you" type stuff. (This was closer to us pulling the trigger and getting the equipment, mind you).
Don't take any of this as me saying that sales people and pre-sales engineers are bad or unneeded. They are VERY important. Just not important at the stage where you are looking for products, direction, strategy, etc. You need to have nearly all of the buying decided on before they get looped in.
Then, near the finalization of a selection, you need these folks to verify configurations, check options, verify stock and delivery times, and things like that. I work with pre-sales engineering people all of the time - but only after I know the product, know why I want to use it, know how it fits into a strategy, etc. The PSE guys are great for making sure that I've not missed something, letting me know about upcoming changes, etc. I work with PSEs all the time. It's a very important role, but it is still sales, just technical sales.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
The Experts being @NTG, right?
Our problem was that we didn't like any of the alternatives at the time.
you didn't like any that you were aware of. That's not to imply that you didn't find them all, but there's always the possibility.
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@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
The Experts being @NTG, right?
Our problem was that we didn't like any of the alternatives at the time.
you didn't like any that you were aware of. That's not to imply that you didn't find them all, but there's always the possibility.
No, I can assure you we did not find them all, lol.
