US goverment, Anything on the Internet is an Export.
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@dafyre said:
I am. 8-) I've been stuck in politics mode this week for some reason... All the mess about the confederate flag and what feels like (to me) the government trying to trample us citizens and all that.
But isn't the Confederate flag seen to many as a symbol of a government that did trample their freedoms (it wasn't their flag, but it is now the symbol of that oppression) and was willing to go to war to protect the ability to be non-free? It's a symbol of anti-freedom.
We were just discussing this. If you support the Confederate flag, a symbol of racism and slavery and strong hatred of America then other than having more time since it was an active war, how is that different than Germany not allowing the Nazi flag and should the Nazi flag be allowed to fly in Germany?
A symbol of hatred and oppression, being allowed, takes away people's freedoms. Taking away the right to bear that symbol, takes away other people's freedoms.
So the question is not about freedom, it is about which group do you want to support? The group that is pro-oppression, or the group that feels that it was oppressed.
As a northerner who lives in Texas, that flag is a very clear symbol of anti-American sentiment and is very, very strong.
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@dafyre said:
Although, I think the heatwave finally broke for a day, at least.
LOL, no, @art_of_shred and I were discussing the Nazi flag thing offline before you had even posted this and were in the other room getting coffee. That you brought it up while we were talking about how it compared to the Nazi flag (a hundred years from now to be similar) is an odd coincidence.
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@dafyre said:
the government trying to trample us citizens and all that.
That's been going on a little while.
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Now, to be fair, I'm not saying that the Confederate flag should be banned. Just making the comparison. If I compare to the Nazi flag, I have to say that I think both should be allowed. As a northerner, the Confederate flag is a clear message of hatred of me personally, as it was a symbol of that post war with little pre-war meaning (the confederate flag as we call it isn't the flag of the confederacy but was the flag of the Army of the Tennessee.) Unlike the Nazi flag which had strong pre-war meaning that was very positive and not hatred motivated. The Nazi flag was a symbol of the fight for freedom for the German state before it took on the modern connotations.
So in many ways, the Nazi flag, I feel, is far more benign than the Confederate one, but the implications are overly similar.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@dafyre said:
the government trying to trample us citizens and all that.
That's been going on a little while.
Since day one. Remember that freedoms were actually extremely limited at the beginning. Sure, you had way more freedom to "do things". But you had far less freedom to "be". They gave people the freedom to take the freedoms away from others - and not just in the obvious ways.
Taxes were low then, but taxes and freedom are different things. Freedom doesn't imply "freedom from taxation."
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Although, I think the heatwave finally broke for a day, at least.
LOL, no, @art_of_shred and I were discussing the Nazi flag thing offline before you had even posted this and were in the other room getting coffee. That you brought it up while we were talking about how it compared to the Nazi flag (a hundred years from now to be similar) is an odd coincidence.
Heat wave... Nazi flag... not making the connection there, lol.
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I'd rather everyone be allowed to fly whatever flag they want and express whatever views they have. It makes it much easier to identify the oddballs and keeps it from going underground into an echo chamber to fester. Bad ideas should be confronted and challenged.
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@scottalanmiller said:
If you support the Confederate flag, a symbol of racism and slavery and strong hatred of America then other than having more time since >it was an active war, how is that different than Germany not allowing the Nazi flag and should the Nazi flag be allowed to fly in
As a northerner who lives in Texas, that flag is a very clear symbol of anti-American sentiment and is very, very strong.But it's not a symbol of racism. most people do not see it that way. It was a battle flag. CNN had an interview with several African American's saying they didn't think it was racist either. That is was about history, and they were proud that their family had served in the war. They African American soldiers got paid by one of the leaders at the end of the war for their service as well according the the people interviewed.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
<snip of good points> It was a battle flag. <snip of other good points>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Edit: for those looking for further reading
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@thecreativeone91 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
If you support the Confederate flag, a symbol of racism and slavery and strong hatred of America then other than having more time since >it was an active war, how is that different than Germany not allowing the Nazi flag and should the Nazi flag be allowed to fly in
As a northerner who lives in Texas, that flag is a very clear symbol of anti-American sentiment and is very, very strong.But it's not a symbol of racism. most people do not see it that way. It was a battle flag.
A battle flag for a battle for what? Slavery. Slavery was racist in nature in America. You cannot say it is not a symbol of racism. It is one of the strongest symbols of racism in the Western world. It is far, far more a symbol of racism in American than the Nazi flag was in Germany. The confederate flag was solely about slavery, the Nazi flag only became associated with genocide later - it had innocent roots.
Most people don't see it as a symbol of racism. But 300% more people see it as offensive than see it as positive.
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@thecreativeone91 said:
That is was about history, and they were proud that their family had served in the war. They African American soldiers got paid by one of the leaders at the end of the war for their service as well according the the people interviewed.
That they were proud for being pro-slavery (for money) is racist, right? That they aren't offended by the flag because they were willing to sell out their fellow man is what is exactly racist about it, right?
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@thecreativeone91 said:
CNN had an interview with several African American's saying they didn't think it was racist either.
Yes but you can watch the news and see millions of people offended by it. That you can find a handful of people who supported the flag, are willing to say it isn't racist or are pro-racist doesn't exclude what it is. It's a symbol and a symbol whose origin was solely about racism. That some small group of people want to use a symbol of racial oppression today as a "proud part of their heritage" may want to feel like they are not racist. But being proud of racism is kind of racist, in my mind.
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What a lot of people argue for today is that it is no longer racist but simply anti-American, a symbol of a desire to not be part of America. There are many who feel that way and somehow use that instead of the flag of the confederacy. That's very strange but they do exist and are willing to accept its racial connotations in exchange for the overarching anti-US message. But I think that they are a small group or one that so often overlaps with the other group that it's not significant.
There is also a large group that simply use it to inform those not from the south that they are not welcome. Which isn't exactly racist but regionalism. Similar as it is a trait with which someone is born and inherits and they cannot change.
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It's a tough one. I think that state governments are super foolish to fly something so widely seen as both racist, a symbol of hatred and of anti-American sentiment. States themselves should think carefully about doing that. There are far better ways to be "pro State" or even "pro South" that aren't "anti-North" and "anti-freedom." When Catalonia flies their national flag, it implies zero anti-Spain feelings. It is just that they are in support of their own nation. It is a very different thing.
In Texas, flying the Texas flag is "pro-Texas." Flying the confederate flag is "anti-American." Two very clear and very different messages. And the number of people who are very, very anti-American and want a new civil war there is probably higher than the number of people willing to openly fly the flag. The "we aren't American" sentiment is very strong. But starting to weaken, I think.
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But for individuals, I think that the right to fly the flag at the national level should be kept, just like I feel that banning the Swastika in Germany is foolish. Don't make it a symbol of the oppressed, keep it as a symbol of oppression.
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Oh, I don't think government should fly it. I wouldn't just because of some people's perception of it either. But, I don't think the flag should be banned or made illegal. Nor do I think it was meant to be racist other than hate groups started using the flag later on.
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Dang... I had this long post written up, and everybody else goes taking all my points, lol.
People are just looking for reasons to be offended. And because this shooter in SC had his picture in front of the dixie flag, that has become the latest target.
See, I growed up in redneck central, and I know folks that are on both sides of the spectrum. Some of them are all about the southern hospitality no matter what the color of your skin is... And folks I just tolerate until they start making racist comments, then I leave their presence, and they know why. (Fortunately for me, it ain't family members).
That flag is part of my growing up, and I seen it on trucks and cars and people's houses. Heck, it was even a major part of the state flag for how many years? People gonna see a symbol for what they want to see it as. I take it as a reminder of my heritage, things lost and gained, and a reminder that Georgia is my home. Yawl can read into it what ya want. Ya' hear now?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
The problem is that once you have someone else telling you what a law means is the moment you have given up your freedom. Yes, I realize that our form of government has been in operation for almost 2 and a half centuries. Yes, I also believe our freedoms have been eroding since that time.
But it is widely seen as not being very free. And two and a half centuries is a tiny amount compared to historically stable governments (Pax Romana, Persian Empire, Holy Rome, Rome, etc.)
I don't feel our freedoms are eroding, not across the board. They are expanding. In what way do "we" have fewer freedoms (that don't involve oppressing others) that before?
Freedom of travel. It's much more scrutinized if not flat out hindered than before.
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@Dashrender said:
Freedom of travel. It's much more scrutinized if not flat out hindered than before.
See that's one that I thought had improved. We are completely free to move everywhere now (inside of the country.) Do you mean into and out of the country?
In what way do you see the freedom reducing?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
Freedom of travel. It's much more scrutinized if not flat out hindered than before.
See that's one that I thought had improved. We are completely free to move everywhere now (inside of the country.) Do you mean into and out of the country?
In what way do you see the freedom reducing?
I'm not sure how far back you'd have to go to find the ability to move around within the country hindered - I've never seen that personally, but I've only been here for 40 years.
I'm talking about internationally.
