Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?
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@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Why is that? Why would the focus be on disarming the US as a nation? What could the possible motive be for removing over 300M firearms from We the People's hands?
BEcause other countries that have had this issue were able to solve it that way. The number of nations with large numbers of firearms and safety are few and VERY differnet from the US....
I'll post why.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Another possible reason I thought of was, sheer boredom with "idle hands."
Heck, "They started quarreling out of sheer boredom" is used as the example in the Cambridge dictionary.
So to that end:
I'm wondering if lately, the whole trophy for everyone/entitlement mentality is a driving force for younger people doing this.
It's possible. One would think inclusion would give a sense of pride but maybe it is having the reverse affect.
Participation trophies are a form of mockery, not inclusion.
That I totally understand. It seems that the ones handing them out, don't.
Why doesn't it seem that way? I think that they seem pretty clear on their mockery and not taking the kids seriously in any way end to end. Every witnessed education at play in the US? It's mockery to them, for sure.
If they know it then why do it unless they expect something in return?
If not then, I think the parents/adults believe it is for their children's mental protection and will do anything to not let them feel bad. The rest of the planet knows in the long term the mockery is detrimental to their children's future.
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I literally had this discussion three days ago on a bus loaded with Israeli soldiers asking the same question. Why is Israel full of guns and the US full of guns but the US has loads of mass shootings and Israel, while threatened constantly, doesn't shoot themselves almost ever.
Why so different?
Easy, but not obvious. Israel is like Switzerland... a tiny place full of a single well identified single group that see themselves as a "team" or "group" separate from the rest of the world. It is exclusive, we are all "us". A mass shooting in Israel means shooting other Israelis... friends, family, neighbors, relatives... people of your group. Same in Switzerland, or basically any safe country with guns.
The US is the polar opposite. We have huge political, racial, economic, state, ideological, religious and other divides. We are a nation built on the right of cults to exist (literally the founding principle) and so because Everyone identifies as a part of many groups - all pretty small (almost all).
Pick any American....
- Catholic, black, republican, northern
- Baptist, white, democrat, southern
- Muslim, hispanic, green, California
ANd so on. Each of those, and other major groups, are divisive. Religions by their nature are about dividing and sowing hatred against other groups - their basis is isolating people to control them. So the religious fervor and disparity in the US is among the most extreme in the world and the gov't is tied into it. That along pits people against each other like the EUropean reformation but all inside a single country.
Then we have huge racial divides. Switzerland and Israel do not, anything but. So like it or not, racial groups will always have a certain amount of "us and them", even if they love each other, they love each other as "different".
Poiitical divides are common anywhere, but few countries put politics on the religious level that the US does. And most don't have the two party system - Swiss and Israeli governments are coalition governments that reduce political tension to a us/them divide.It's uniquely (almost) divisive in the US.
Regions i the US are extreme. As a NYer, someone from Georgia might be a wonderful person, but in no way from "where I am from". They are a foreigner to me in culture, accent, beliefs and vice versa. Even NY and California that seem to share a lot ideologically think nothing alike and while they might like each other, they don't want to be that close to one another.
Even historically, different parts of the US have different religions, languages, and founding history. MOst of the US comes from French and Spanish colonies, some like me from Dutch, and some from British. Almost all were forced together against their will. It's conquered territory, not a "coming together of neighbors".
Everything about the American journey is one of "disparate people mashed together" and it carries huge risk. The things that make small, homogenous places generally safe, makes America naturally very, very dangerous.
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@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
If they know it then why do it unless they expect something in return?
Because it looks good to the political people who determine their jobs.
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@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
If not then, I think the parents/adults believe it is for their children's mental protection and will do anything to not let them feel bad. The rest of the planet knows in the long term the mockery is detrimental to their children's future.
As a parent, I think exactly the opposite and I see the toll the constant mockery has on others. Kids know very well when they get "praised" for doing badly.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
If not then, I think the parents/adults believe it is for their children's mental protection and will do anything to not let them feel bad. The rest of the planet knows in the long term the mockery is detrimental to their children's future.
As a parent, I think exactly the opposite and I see the toll the constant mockery has on others. Kids know very well when they get "praised" for doing badly.
I agree.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Criminals gonna perp. Guns gonna be available to them in perpetuity. That has not changed since perps smuggled spears into "spear free zones" and started slashing.
reminds me of Back to the Future 3 - Tannan with a gun in his hat
Yeah - you're not wrong.
Short of killing all ability to acquire shooting weapons - specific no-shooty weapons zones will always be hit by the criminals.
And even once you make shooty's illegal - it will probably take 30+ years to get enough off the streets before you actually see a decline in violence caused by them.
It's just an impractical battle from the anti-shooty people.
Real world examples say that you can take guns away quickly and effectively. It's been done in large countries before to great effect. You can want or not want gun control of different sorts, that's a different issue. But the ability to take them off of the streets and make them all but impossible to get and easy to identify when rogue (that's the biggest deal) is actually quite easy and the US is anything but an exception to the norm.
Well - sure if you are the gestapo! Though frankly - I think the gov't trying to do that in the USA would lead to large amounts of violence on it's own.
Sure overnight you could remove all store based sales of weapons - likely to get as much resistance - send police to the homes of registered gun owners - likely to meet a lot of resistance.
And yes you'll remove the guns from gang members as the gangs are caught with the guns - but I'm sure there is a huge amount of underground guns that will continue to circulate for a while - several years at least.But in the end - do you think this will solve the problem? Sure it will reduce mass shootings - but now we'll see IEDs become the replacement, or people just driving into crowded spaces, etc.
The underlying issue will still remain. - which was what the OP was asking about... what is the underlying issue - and is it actually solvable?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Another possible reason I thought of was, sheer boredom with "idle hands."
Heck, "They started quarreling out of sheer boredom" is used as the example in the Cambridge dictionary.
So to that end:
I'm wondering if lately, the whole trophy for everyone/entitlement mentality is a driving force for younger people doing this.
It's possible. One would think inclusion would give a sense of pride but maybe it is having the reverse affect.
Participation trophies are a form of mockery, not inclusion.
That I totally understand. It seems that the ones handing them out, don't.
Why doesn't it seem that way? I think that they seem pretty clear on their mockery and not taking the kids seriously in any way end to end. Every witnessed education at play in the US? It's mockery to them, for sure.
So you think it's intentional? if so - why?
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
EDIT 2: Switzerland. Every household has a gun. It's mandatory service there. Where's the mass shootings?
We have one of the highest per capita firearms ownership up here and yet where are the mass shootings?
Why is that? Why would the focus be on disarming the US as a nation? What could the possible motive be for removing over 300M firearms from We the People's hands?
I think another issue we have is that we are looked at as a single country (of course which we are) but really we shouldn't be. At best we should be look regionally or only at the state level. That would put us comparably much closer to the rest of the world. Granted we'll have places like Nebraska/S. Dakota/N. Dakota/Montanna have super low populations compared to our landmasses.. but still.. stop looking at the USA as a single thing - and break it into more closely related parts for your comparisons.
HOw would it make us more comparable? Remember that shootings are done as "rates", not whole numbers. Breaking it up would make some states better and some worse, but the average would still be the worst in the world - it would not change at all because no matter how much you break it up, the percentages stay the same. That's why percentages are what we use so that size has no bearing.
Because if you look at California vs say Nebraska (and I haven't yet) it could show huge problems in cali, but not so much in nebraska - which means NE is a safer place to live.
just an example. -
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Criminals gonna perp. Guns gonna be available to them in perpetuity. That has not changed since perps smuggled spears into "spear free zones" and started slashing.
reminds me of Back to the Future 3 - Tannan with a gun in his hat
Yeah - you're not wrong.
Short of killing all ability to acquire shooting weapons - specific no-shooty weapons zones will always be hit by the criminals.
And even once you make shooty's illegal - it will probably take 30+ years to get enough off the streets before you actually see a decline in violence caused by them.
It's just an impractical battle from the anti-shooty people.
Real world examples say that you can take guns away quickly and effectively. It's been done in large countries before to great effect. You can want or not want gun control of different sorts, that's a different issue. But the ability to take them off of the streets and make them all but impossible to get and easy to identify when rogue (that's the biggest deal) is actually quite easy and the US is anything but an exception to the norm.
Gun related crimes do not go away when firearms are removed from the hands of citizens. Gangs be gangs and perps be perps. The cost of an off market firearm may go up as a result of the restrictions, but they are still available.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
If not then, I think the parents/adults believe it is for their children's mental protection and will do anything to not let them feel bad. The rest of the planet knows in the long term the mockery is detrimental to their children's future.
As a parent, I think exactly the opposite and I see the toll the constant mockery has on others. Kids know very well when they get "praised" for doing badly.
Our job is to teach our kids "Sticks & Stones" and "Water off a duck's back".
A person's dignity and integrity has nothing to do with what other people think of them.
I don't give a flying fook what others think of me or my opinions and my value as a human being has nothing to do with what others think as well.
The value of the human person is intrinsic to being human. It's what sets us apart from the animals.
We live in a Clown world where peep's feelings trump everything and others need to be psychic or something to not "harm" them or do "violence" to them with words. What poppycock.
Kids will be cruel. It's what they do. How one learns to deal with it is how one can succeed in a world where others will do actual violence to them to get ahead. So, teach them street smarts in person and virtually and always be cautious around others.
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@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Criminals gonna perp. Guns gonna be available to them in perpetuity. That has not changed since perps smuggled spears into "spear free zones" and started slashing.
reminds me of Back to the Future 3 - Tannan with a gun in his hat
Yeah - you're not wrong.
Short of killing all ability to acquire shooting weapons - specific no-shooty weapons zones will always be hit by the criminals.
And even once you make shooty's illegal - it will probably take 30+ years to get enough off the streets before you actually see a decline in violence caused by them.
It's just an impractical battle from the anti-shooty people.
Real world examples say that you can take guns away quickly and effectively. It's been done in large countries before to great effect. You can want or not want gun control of different sorts, that's a different issue. But the ability to take them off of the streets and make them all but impossible to get and easy to identify when rogue (that's the biggest deal) is actually quite easy and the US is anything but an exception to the norm.
Gun related crimes do not go away when firearms are removed from the hands of citizens. Gangs be gangs and perps be perps. The cost of an off market firearm may go up as a result of the restrictions, but they are still available.
That's a solid sound bite, but statistically isn't valid. For two reasons... criminals take the path of least resistance and difficult (and risky) to obtain firearms are proven to be very hard for criminals to get. And when guns are a giveaway that you are a criminal it is way, way easier to stop someone than when carrying weapons is considered part of normal life and you can't identify a threat until it is too late.
In the real world, we know this works, it's already proven the world over. The more guns society has, the more likely they are to be fired. The fewer, the less. That doesn't mean we should go to zero guns or that guns themselves are the issue. It's just a statistical fact and a means to start reducing the violence if reducing the violence is the goal. The problem isn't knowing how to reduce violence, it's making it something that the nation prioritizes.
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@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Criminals gonna perp. Guns gonna be available to them in perpetuity. That has not changed since perps smuggled spears into "spear free zones" and started slashing.
reminds me of Back to the Future 3 - Tannan with a gun in his hat
Yeah - you're not wrong.
Short of killing all ability to acquire shooting weapons - specific no-shooty weapons zones will always be hit by the criminals.
And even once you make shooty's illegal - it will probably take 30+ years to get enough off the streets before you actually see a decline in violence caused by them.
It's just an impractical battle from the anti-shooty people.
Real world examples say that you can take guns away quickly and effectively. It's been done in large countries before to great effect. You can want or not want gun control of different sorts, that's a different issue. But the ability to take them off of the streets and make them all but impossible to get and easy to identify when rogue (that's the biggest deal) is actually quite easy and the US is anything but an exception to the norm.
Gun related crimes do not go away when firearms are removed from the hands of citizens. Gangs be gangs and perps be perps. The cost of an off market firearm may go up as a result of the restrictions, but they are still available.
Using "it won't go away" is the "avoid real because you can't have ideal" argument. No taking guns away won't stop ALL crime. Nothing will stop ALL crime. You can't use that as a bar for anything. Will reducing guns reduce crime and specifically gun related crime? Obviously. So why use the strawman? The goal is to save lives, and it's universally known that reducing guns will reduce the crime. No one actually doesn't believe that, that would be absolutely insane.
The problem is all about priorities. What is important to different groups isn't the same. It's like driving vs. flying. Absolutely no one actually believes driving is safer, it's absurd. But we all feel like it is safer and most people prioritize it because the feeling of control is emotionally more satisfying than the reality of safety. Our brains get confused.
Guns are like that. They feel like we are in control, so we emotionally prioritize that control over the reality of the safety giving them up we know would provide.
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@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
EDIT 2: Switzerland. Every household has a gun. It's mandatory service there. Where's the mass shootings?
We have one of the highest per capita firearms ownership up here and yet where are the mass shootings?
Why is that? Why would the focus be on disarming the US as a nation? What could the possible motive be for removing over 300M firearms from We the People's hands?
I think another issue we have is that we are looked at as a single country (of course which we are) but really we shouldn't be. At best we should be look regionally or only at the state level. That would put us comparably much closer to the rest of the world. Granted we'll have places like Nebraska/S. Dakota/N. Dakota/Montanna have super low populations compared to our landmasses.. but still.. stop looking at the USA as a single thing - and break it into more closely related parts for your comparisons.
HOw would it make us more comparable? Remember that shootings are done as "rates", not whole numbers. Breaking it up would make some states better and some worse, but the average would still be the worst in the world - it would not change at all because no matter how much you break it up, the percentages stay the same. That's why percentages are what we use so that size has no bearing.
Because if you look at California vs say Nebraska (and I haven't yet) it could show huge problems in cali, but not so much in nebraska - which means NE is a safer place to live.
just an example.Except you just break things up by urban vs rural. Of course the denser a population, the more dangerous it is. That's just going to be math. If you can't reach your neighbour or never encounter them, they are going to be much safer than if you are actively annoying each other and can swing a punch at each other when annoyed.
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@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@pmoncho said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Another possible reason I thought of was, sheer boredom with "idle hands."
Heck, "They started quarreling out of sheer boredom" is used as the example in the Cambridge dictionary.
So to that end:
I'm wondering if lately, the whole trophy for everyone/entitlement mentality is a driving force for younger people doing this.
It's possible. One would think inclusion would give a sense of pride but maybe it is having the reverse affect.
Participation trophies are a form of mockery, not inclusion.
That I totally understand. It seems that the ones handing them out, don't.
Why doesn't it seem that way? I think that they seem pretty clear on their mockery and not taking the kids seriously in any way end to end. Every witnessed education at play in the US? It's mockery to them, for sure.
So you think it's intentional? if so - why?
Because they are all annoyed by being baby sitters and having to put up with ridiculous expectations and bull shit and it's a thankless job that many took because they thought it was the easy road that didn't require them to ever engage with the real, adult world. Loads of reasons. But at the end of the day, I assume parents (the customers) want to feel good, and the mockery doesn't get noticed so much by them. The kids take the emotional damage, the teachers are just taking the easy road to placating parents that don't pay any attention.
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@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
EDIT 2: Switzerland. Every household has a gun. It's mandatory service there. Where's the mass shootings?
We have one of the highest per capita firearms ownership up here and yet where are the mass shootings?
Why is that? Why would the focus be on disarming the US as a nation? What could the possible motive be for removing over 300M firearms from We the People's hands?
I think another issue we have is that we are looked at as a single country (of course which we are) but really we shouldn't be. At best we should be look regionally or only at the state level. That would put us comparably much closer to the rest of the world. Granted we'll have places like Nebraska/S. Dakota/N. Dakota/Montanna have super low populations compared to our landmasses.. but still.. stop looking at the USA as a single thing - and break it into more closely related parts for your comparisons.
HOw would it make us more comparable? Remember that shootings are done as "rates", not whole numbers. Breaking it up would make some states better and some worse, but the average would still be the worst in the world - it would not change at all because no matter how much you break it up, the percentages stay the same. That's why percentages are what we use so that size has no bearing.
Because if you look at California vs say Nebraska (and I haven't yet) it could show huge problems in cali, but not so much in nebraska - which means NE is a safer place to live.
just an example.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_violent_crime_rate
Actually the list is more interesting than you'd think. Most of the most violent states are pretty rural. Being a red state matters far more than being urban. In fact, the more you are pro-gun, it seems the more violence that there is (likely the other way around) and even though there is freedom of movement across the entire country, violence spills over relatively little. Or if it spills over much at all, it suggests that the safer states are way, way safer locally and it's the freedom of movement that screws them.
Like how Buffalo's shooting was an upstate mass shooting but he perp was from many hours away separated by several regions and millions of people.
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Gun control is, I think, a red herring, though. I'm 100% confident that taking away guns takes away guns and that while "bad people can always find a way" global statics show that that's a pointless argument because it makes it effectively true and that's all that matters for safety.
Obviously if there were truly zero guns mass shootings would be impossible. But I think it's also obvious that mass knifings, mass bombings, mass driving into crowds and other forms of horrific destruction would replace them. Taking away guns makes it harder, and reduces the body count. But it doesn't solve the underlying problems.
Mental healthy, high stress, a torn society, a lack of social bonding, horrific education standards, religious hatred, government corruption, a constant stream of "there is no future"... all add into the mass shooting or mass whatever problem, I think. The question here isn't why is it mass SHOOTINGs, that's easy... because guns are the easiest way to MASS do anything. What Dash is asking is why the increase in MASS something or others.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Gun control is, I think, a red herring, though. I'm 100% confident that taking away guns takes away guns and that while "bad people can always find a way" global statics show that that's a pointless argument because it makes it effectively true and that's all that matters for safety.
Obviously if there were truly zero guns mass shootings would be impossible. But I think it's also obvious that mass knifings, mass bombings, mass driving into crowds and other forms of horrific destruction would replace them. Taking away guns makes it harder, and reduces the body count. But it doesn't solve the underlying problems.
Mental healthy, high stress, a torn society, a lack of social bonding, horrific education standards, religious hatred, government corruption, a constant stream of "there is no future"... all add into the mass shooting or mass whatever problem, I think. The question here isn't why is it mass SHOOTINGs, that's easy... because guns are the easiest way to MASS do anything. What Dash is asking is why the increase in MASS something or others.
When you put it like that (as I basically already said above - and clearly agree with) - you're right, I put to specific a point on the shooting - my real question - why the mass desire to hurt others has seemingly seemed to have increased?
Perhaps when taken in this context, it hasn't? Humans by their nature I believe are violent.
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@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@scottalanmiller said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@Dashrender said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
@PhlipElder said in Why have mass shootings increased - you thoughts?:
Criminals gonna perp. Guns gonna be available to them in perpetuity. That has not changed since perps smuggled spears into "spear free zones" and started slashing.
reminds me of Back to the Future 3 - Tannan with a gun in his hat
Yeah - you're not wrong.
Short of killing all ability to acquire shooting weapons - specific no-shooty weapons zones will always be hit by the criminals.
And even once you make shooty's illegal - it will probably take 30+ years to get enough off the streets before you actually see a decline in violence caused by them.
It's just an impractical battle from the anti-shooty people.
Real world examples say that you can take guns away quickly and effectively. It's been done in large countries before to great effect. You can want or not want gun control of different sorts, that's a different issue. But the ability to take them off of the streets and make them all but impossible to get and easy to identify when rogue (that's the biggest deal) is actually quite easy and the US is anything but an exception to the norm.
Gun related crimes do not go away when firearms are removed from the hands of citizens. Gangs be gangs and perps be perps. The cost of an off market firearm may go up as a result of the restrictions, but they are still available.
That's a solid sound bite, but statistically isn't valid. For two reasons... criminals take the path of least resistance and difficult (and risky) to obtain firearms are proven to be very hard for criminals to get. And when guns are a giveaway that you are a criminal it is way, way easier to stop someone than when carrying weapons is considered part of normal life and you can't identify a threat until it is too late.
In the real world, we know this works, it's already proven the world over. The more guns society has, the more likely they are to be fired. The fewer, the less. That doesn't mean we should go to zero guns or that guns themselves are the issue. It's just a statistical fact and a means to start reducing the violence if reducing the violence is the goal. The problem isn't knowing how to reduce violence, it's making it something that the nation prioritizes.
Citations please. Show me one society that removed firearms from citizen's hands that had zero gun related crime. I'll wait.
