Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection'
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Do you know that? Or is the news just reporting that. See post above.
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@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@JaredBusch Depends on the test as I understand it.
No it does not.
No state agency is counting antibody tests as active cases. Antibodies form after the fact. Again Health 101.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Now you are leaping again. Want to complain that lockdowns down make sense, argue for that. Don't claim that facts are untrue based on false information because you don't like how those facts are used by government.
Attack policy if you feel it is bad. It's easy to make a case for not locking down. But it's not easy to make a plea for us to believe that math isn't true.
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@JaredBusch said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Do you know that? Or is the news just reporting that. See post above.
See California. Draconian measures being implemented. Nevada, Ontario and Quebec Canada.
There are plenty of examples of jurisdictions locking down because "Spike".
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@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Now you are leaping again. Want to complain that lockdowns down make sense, argue for that. Don't claim that facts are untrue based on false information because you don't like how those facts are used by government.
Attack policy if you feel it is bad. It's easy to make a case for not locking down. But it's not easy to make a plea for us to believe that math isn't true.
Maybe we need folks talking about "Cases" and "Spikes" to explain clearly what is meant by that. Then, let's get someone to talk about virus movement through a population and how that is measured and tracked.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
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@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Yes. "Science" that word has been so abused in the last number of decades.
As far as emotion and logic go, my challenges remain unanswered from a logic perspective.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Now you are leaping again. Want to complain that lockdowns down make sense, argue for that. Don't claim that facts are untrue based on false information because you don't like how those facts are used by government.
Attack policy if you feel it is bad. It's easy to make a case for not locking down. But it's not easy to make a plea for us to believe that math isn't true.
Maybe we need folks talking about "Cases" and "Spikes" to explain clearly what is meant by that. Then, let's get someone to talk about virus movement through a population and how that is measured and tracked.
Pure cases is just a count in cases measured or calculated. But a spike is when the population infection rate goes up at a high rate (instead of steady change.) Right now, we have a spike because the testing is higher than before AND the positive per test is higher. This shows that we aren't testing enough to know and that the rate has to be increasing a lot to make the tests look that way.
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@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@JaredBusch said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Because "Cases" and "Spike" are being used to lockdown populations while death rates have been relatively static or falling.
Do you know that? Or is the news just reporting that. See post above.
See California. Draconian measures being implemented. Nevada, Ontario and Quebec Canada.
There are plenty of examples of jurisdictions locking down because "Spike".
You are incorrect, you are parroting something that is not the state policy
California specifies metrics.
https://covid19.ca.gov/state-dashboard/ -
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
As far as emotion and logic go, my challenges remain unanswered from a logic perspective.
Everything was addressed, solidly. That there is a spike has no logically counterargument. You've presented no explanation for the spike (increase in positive results per test without an associated drop in testing rate.) So I'm not sure that there's even something to respond to. You've only mentioned factors (like increased total tests) that show that there is definitely a spike, rather than any argument against it.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
Yes. "Science" that word has been so abused in the last number of decades.
By politicians.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
So your claim, just to be clear, is that the tests themselves are fake and the entire multi-national healthcare response is falsified? That's far more plausible than the math not saying that there is a spike. And it's far from impossible. But it is extreme and difficult given the global nature of it. We'd expect there to be dissenting nations if this were true.
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@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
As far as emotion and logic go, my challenges remain unanswered from a logic perspective.
Everything was addressed, solidly. That there is a spike has no logically counterargument. You've presented no explanation for the spike (increase in positive results per test without an associated drop in testing rate.) So I'm not sure that there's even something to respond to. You've only mentioned factors (like increased total tests) that show that there is definitely a spike, rather than any argument against it.
The two measurements, that is tests and positive counts per tests still don't indicate movement.
Stating that increased positive results per group of tests states that what? That one area happens to have a higher positive count than another?
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
The two measurements, that is tests and positive counts per tests still don't indicate movement.
Stating that increased positive results per group of tests states that what? That one area happens to have a higher positive count than another?Yes, that the area of testing has a higher count than before, by a significant rate, and that's what a spike is.
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@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
So your claim, just to be clear, is that the tests themselves are fake and the entire multi-national healthcare response is falsified? That's far more plausible than the math not saying that there is a spike. And it's far from impossible. But it is extreme and difficult given the global nature of it. We'd expect there to be dissenting nations if this were true.
There's been enough doubt cast around tests and their results to be cautious around any "positive test result" claimed. So, yes.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
So your claim, just to be clear, is that the tests themselves are fake and the entire multi-national healthcare response is falsified? That's far more plausible than the math not saying that there is a spike. And it's far from impossible. But it is extreme and difficult given the global nature of it. We'd expect there to be dissenting nations if this were true.
There's been enough doubt cast around tests and their results to be cautious around any "positive test result" claimed. So, yes.
Just making sure that we are on the same page. This I don't agree with, but I buy the argument and can see the position.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
So your claim, just to be clear, is that the tests themselves are fake and the entire multi-national healthcare response is falsified? That's far more plausible than the math not saying that there is a spike. And it's far from impossible. But it is extreme and difficult given the global nature of it. We'd expect there to be dissenting nations if this were true.
There's been enough doubt cast around tests and their results to be cautious around any "positive test result" claimed. So, yes.
Umm no there has not. PCR testing is not a new thing and has long been extremely accurate.
But to expand beyond PCR testing, even the worst initial antibody tests were reporting false negatives (not false positives). So not evenpossible to make the "rate" higher than it should be.
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@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@PhlipElder said in Covid: Antibodies 'fall rapidly after infection':
@scottalanmiller Doesn't wash with me.
That's fine, but your argument doesn't wash with me. It's illogical and unfounded. It's just an emotional response that isn't based on the math or the science.
Are the tests being used to create panic? Sure, I'll agree with that. Are the tests false? No, that's a completely different thing.
Extreme example: There were Jews in Germany in 1935... fact. Hitler used this as an excuse for genocide... fact. We can't argue that Jews existed, that's simple fact. It's the horrible policy created using the aforementioned fact as a catalyst that we hate. But the fact can't be changed, and the fact didn't create the policy. The policy alone was the problem.
Re: Tests <-- How many labs have been caught publishing incorrect results?
So your claim, just to be clear, is that the tests themselves are fake and the entire multi-national healthcare response is falsified? That's far more plausible than the math not saying that there is a spike. And it's far from impossible. But it is extreme and difficult given the global nature of it. We'd expect there to be dissenting nations if this were true.
There's been enough doubt cast around tests and their results to be cautious around any "positive test result" claimed. So, yes.
To lend some credence to the US/CDN position, though.... in countries that claim that there is no infection and do no testing (you know who you are) they are having similar movement and death rates to the US. It's just not being reported by politicians. There are countries where the doctors are reporting the same general type numbers as the neighbours, but with the government claiming extremely low numbers.
So in some cases where the government disagrees, the medical field says that the numbers from the US/CDN are similar to what they see.
