Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development
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@Obsolesce said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I've used WP for a lot of production stuff and it's been nothing short of excellent with zero issues on any end.
You must be doing something seriously wrong, or have some weird prejudice or bias against WP.
I'm not doing anything "wrong". The point is you have to do a TON of "right" stuff to make WP do what it needs to do. And there is for certain a whole mess of things people can do "wrong" as well. Not updating is a HUGE problem for WP, as recent studies have found most sites using vulnerable versions, low PHP versions, long dead plugins, etc.
Do you mask or change the wp-admin URL? Do you put the WP core out of web root? Are you able to use a Git workflow or store the custom parts of the theme and plugins in a repo?
I'm not going to fight about how bad WP is, I already know it, but it's what everybody uses because it has the most plugins.
If you're a dev who builds the theme from scratch and uses no 3rd party themes, then fine, but that's not what most small agencies and freelancers do. They grab a theme on themeforest and install a 20-plugin stack of their favorite necessities. Then nobody maintains it.
I'm not mad at WP, it's a legacy system built on old techniques and has the advantage of a huge plugin store. Can't argue with that. But there is nothing much else great about it. You need a large learning curve to figure out its secret sauce. You need extra plugins just to be able to build the custom content needed for pages, or a page builder, ACF, Pods, something. Then a deep understanding of a favored theme framework, if you're into those, and all the possible hook locations. Genesis, Gantry, Thesis, Thematic, Divi, whatever your pleasure. You have to learn the hook system as well as the page builder they may or may not use.
So every WP site I come across has some new or old framework with an entirely different set of APIs and functions to figure out, because no two sites come together quite the same way. Some have custom admin UIs, some use the Customizer, some are only in the template files, some have child themes, some not. And those that don't use a child theme, you can't be sure whether the main/parent theme was customized or not, so have to be careful doing a theme update.We would all like to believe we build WP sites perfectly in April 2019, but in 5 years it will be someone else's nightmare to figure out. Just like every site I'm given that was built 5 or 10 years ago is now my nightmare to figure out. Some were done well, to be sure, and might even have some dev docs to help out. But others you just get 2700 lines of random hook outputs piled into the functions file. You never know what you're going to get. And this isn't a praiseworthy design feature of WP.
I wouldn't tell anybody to not use it if they want, I would simply say there are other options out there, people trying to improve the CMS space and do things better.
If WP is your only tool, everything looks like a sloppy plugin-riddled nightmare
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I'm not doing anything "wrong".
But you are saying that you are having issues, issues that don't exist when WP is used correctly. How can you have those issues AND not use WP "wrong"? That's his point. You mention several misconceptions about WP... that it will have bad plugins, that it will be slow and unstable, that you don't expect to have to select the needed components, that developers will write code for it, that end users will manage it... all "wrong" from a WP perspective. Those ideas are "wrong" in the WP world and will lead to the issues you are having.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
The point is you have to do a TON of "right" stuff to make WP do what it needs to do.
Yes, and that is what makes it good and powerful. Just like Windows, or CentOS, it's just a base for IT pros to use out of the box to put together the thing that they specifically need.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
Do you mask or change the wp-admin URL?
You are not supposed to do that... ever.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
And there is for certain a whole mess of things people can do "wrong" as well.
Yes, which is why, like everything in IT, only people who know what they are doing should be doing it. Any Windows desktop falls under the same problems. You download a virus, you install Norton, you have problems. Skilled IT people are necessary for powerful tools in any arena. This stuff is simply too much for end users to even understand.
To make something "anyone" can use, you'd have to make it so limited and bloated. And why, when you have IT to make sure that that doesn't happen with more powerful tools?
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It seems to me that all of the "right" stuff you are doing to your WP installs are actually wrong and screwing it up.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
Not updating is a HUGE problem for WP, as recent studies have found most sites using vulnerable versions, low PHP versions, long dead plugins, etc.
No, it's a huge problem for people using anything improperly. It's not a WP problem, it's a "who let anyone who doesn't patch run any system" problem?
Those aren't possible WP problems, the study isn't telling you what you think it is telling you.
Also, WP has automated update systems, so something out of date means someone isn't doing their job. Bad IT is bad no matter what application you run. Windows, Linux, Word, Excel.... all need competent IT. You can't run IT systems blindly.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
Do you mask or change the wp-admin URL? Do you put the WP core out of web root? Are you able to use a Git workflow or store the custom parts of the theme and plugins in a repo?
Nope, so that's all good. Thank goodness none of that should happen, so that we don't is a good thing.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
If you're a dev who builds the theme from scratch and uses no 3rd party themes, then fine, but that's not what most small agencies and freelancers do. They grab a theme on themeforest and install a 20-plugin stack of their favorite necessities. Then nobody maintains it.
Again, you are confusing concepts. 1) Devs don't make themes, designers make themes. 2) Buying unmaintained themes is a problem that IT and the designers need to fix.
That you have people using systems badly is not related to WP being good. Windows is not bad just because the average end user still clicks on spam email. You mention user problems, but them equate them with platform problems. But the issue is just bad IT that isn't overseeing stuff. That's never WP's problem.
Here is an easy way to tell whose problem something is: if maintained correctly, does it work well?
WP when used correctly is amazingly fast, stable, and safe. So when you perceive issues, that implies the issues are with the humans misusing it, since humans who don't misuse it rarely face problems.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I'm not mad at WP, it's a legacy system built on old techniques and has the advantage of a huge plugin store
No, it's not. It's modern and works how we'd want a modern system to work. It's an enterprise CMS for IT departments that know what they are doing. You can't get that power from a lesser system.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
You need a large learning curve to figure out its secret sauce. You need extra plugins just to be able to build the custom content needed for pages, or a page builder, ACF, Pods, something. Then a deep understanding of a favored theme framework, if you're into those, and all the possible hook locations. Genesis, Gantry, Thesis, Thematic, Divi, whatever your pleasure. You have to learn the hook system as well as the page builder they may or may not use.
Like ALL of IT. WP isn't magic, it can't be. It has the expected learning curve for an enterprise app. It's not hard, nor is it for end users. Again, if you fix your misconception of what WP is and thinking that it is a non-production system for end users (nothing for end users is for production by definition) makes all of your "issues" clearly turn into "good design." Everything you mention as being bad is actually exactly what IT would want. Your tone is one of complaining, but your words tell us how good WP is.
And you don't need all these deep understanding. I run a lot of production WP and have for a very long time, and not one of those things is something we have or need to know. None of it. It's there if we need it, but we don't, not in the real world.
Most of our sites run with about five plugins, and most of those are not necessary, they just help with management or performance. I think you have seen a few total buffoons try to use WP, someone told you it was something that obviously it is not, and you'd missed how normal people have none of these issues. The system basically "just works" with way less knowledge than you'd reasonably expect.
I just logged into my busiest, largest site. Number of plugins: 5. One is internal cache, one is external cache management (totally unneeded), one is SSL handling, one is security, and then one for a theme enhancement. That's it.
WHY do you feel that so many plugins are necessary? Just because you have dealt with someone who is a plugin addict, you can't project that problem onto the platform or other people. That's not a WP problem, it's not a normal problem.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
So every WP site I come across has some new or old framework with an entirely different set of APIs and functions to figure out, because no two sites come together quite the same way. Some have custom admin UIs, some use the Customizer, some are only in the template files, some have child themes, some not. And those that don't use a child theme, you can't be sure whether the main/parent theme was customized or not, so have to be careful doing a theme update.
Again, end user issues, nothing to do with WP.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
We would all like to believe we build WP sites perfectly in April 2019, but in 5 years it will be someone else's nightmare to figure out.
Been doing this a lot longer than that, and no nightmares. Nothing to figure out. And I do migrations for other companies. The issues you are seeing aren't normal, even for a WP hosting company onboarding other people's stuff.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
And this isn't a praiseworthy design feature of WP.
Except, it 100% is. Absolutely. This is what makes WP great. It's why we choose it. It's why people want it. This is totally why WP is praiseworthy.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I would simply say there are other options out there, people trying to improve the CMS space and do things better.
There are, and some good ones. But all that people consider good have the same, or more, of these "features." Drupla, Joomla... if you think WP is complex and can scale out like mad, just wait till you try alternatives!
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@scottalanmiller said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I would simply say there are other options out there, people trying to improve the CMS space and do things better.
There are, and some good ones. But all that people consider good have the same, or more, of these "features." Drupla, Joomla... if you think WP is complex and can scale out like mad, just wait till you try alternatives!
I've done a lot of work with Joomla, quite a few years. I do like it.
Not so much with Drupal, but it's interesting.
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@Obsolesce said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
@scottalanmiller said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I would simply say there are other options out there, people trying to improve the CMS space and do things better.
There are, and some good ones. But all that people consider good have the same, or more, of these "features." Drupla, Joomla... if you think WP is complex and can scale out like mad, just wait till you try alternatives!
I've done a lot of work with Joomla, quite a few years. I do like it.
Not so much with Drupal, but it's interesting.
Oh they are fine tools. It's just that they are as big or bigger than WP and even more complex.
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Sorry, not reading the hundred over-analyzing responses here. I already know WP is garbage so you're not convincing me otherwise, I've worked on too many of the things.
I've had to work on 200+ of the things and there is never one built "right". Everybody has a different idea of "right" or what makes the design/theme/development/workflow "easy". Fact is, with 200 sites, you get 200 different ways a website is built. There is very little consistency. There is no "right" way to build a site in WP.
@Obsolesce said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
It seems to me that all of the "right" stuff you are doing to your WP installs are actually wrong and screwing it up.
I didn't say I was doing this. I work on other peoples' sites. This is what everybody else is doing. Every site is different.
Second, you absolutely should change the admin URL if possible, it's a very simple and basic thing that stops a ton of bot attacks by default. But WP doesn't make it easy, so it's rarely done. And keeping core files out of web root is also a very easy security measure that most modern software do by default, only exposing the public files and index. But WP definitely doesn't make that easy either.
Why would it be that only minutes after creating a brand new user, there are already bots attempting to log in with the username? How would they have found the username of a brand new user who hasn't created any content?Creating a new WP site and not doing a full security stack of plugins would be like doing a fresh install of Windows XP and putting it on the internet with no antivirus!
I don't need to be convinced of WP greatness, it's not worth the effort. We all have our opinions of things. Imagine someone hires you because they spent 4 hours and couldn't figure out how to edit some text in the footer. So you spend another hour and half trying to track it down for them because in WP there is no actual standard place where your templates and output live. It could be anywhere, in plugin UI somewhere, or deep in a PHP template which includes another PHP which includes another PHP which overrides another which hooks another that filters another.
On what planet is a CMS powerful or great when it takes 5.5 hours to find some text in the footer?This is like if you have a flat tire in your car so you try to find the puncture and finally discover the nail is actually under the carpet of the headliner inside the cab. hahah! That's kind of what it feels like to work on an old content-rich WP site sometimes.
I'm glad none of you build sites that way. I don't either, but it's one of the traps often found working on existing ones.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
Sorry, not reading the hundred over-analyzing responses here.
That's hardly what it is. You are not addressing the fact that you have not provided any negatives about it. You've mentioned over and over how great it is, and then used those good things about it to claim it is garbage. You've not explained how all those good things result in a bad product, only that you keep seeing people misuse it and that obviously misused things don't work well.
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@guyinpv said in Top 10 Advantages of Using Wordpress for Website Development:
I already know WP is garbage so you're not convincing me otherwise, I've worked on too many of the things.
From your approach, it doesn't feel like we need to. Your posts about it make it seem like you know it is good, but are angry at it for some reason.
