Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?
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Using a Windows 7 (or 10) workstation for basic file serving is allowed in uselessly limited circumstances. That's one of the exceptions. But the limit is crazy low and not easy to explain. It is limited on connections, not users, and people always misstate it. It's useful only for the amount of connections needed to use a desktop in normal ways, the moment you try to use it even as a file server, it will generally go over the limits. But that gets into a grey area of "how can we tell how many connections?"
But that's not the case here. That would apply to software that simply shares a database file for an extremely limited number of workstations. Old QuickBooks, for example. But that system is so buggy and problematic, no viable software really still does that. They are all using databases and connection handling software now. Or should. (Example: AviMark vs. AviMark with Guardian. You can disable the server aspects of the system for fallback desktop licensing, but it makes the product a total dog.)
So even products that have traditionally been able to be used in this way like AviMark or QuickBooks left that model years ago and now require Windows Server and CAL licensing to be able to deploy.
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@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
We use a file-server system environment - Maybe that's what he is meaning as "server"
You are using MS SQL Server. What does that exist for, if not to be a database server? If you turn it off, does nothing break?
We are using MS Sql Express - yes. It's needed for the database in New versions of Aloha manager.
If we turn it off, the point of sale doesnt get the changes made.So you are running a database server that absolutely requires server licensing. Ergo, it's not licensed.
Okay.
You point these things out - however Point of Sales have been running like this for decades. Why was it not brought up prior.Why is it just now coming up that this a problem with the way it's working?
Maybe I dont have enough information and you're piecing things together ?
what is it that I'm doing wrong exactly in my current position ? -
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
If SQL Server is there for no function whatsoever, then it might not qualify as a server. But if that is the case, turn it off as that is certainly using a lot of resources that can't be afforded on such an ancient machine.
The way new aloha manager works, from what I'm told- It breaks the changes down into the sql. Then it imports into the file folders and sends the change to the front of house.
SQL is needed for information to pass along to the front of house.Yup. A bit weird, but doesn't change that SQL Server is being used and is needed. That there is another connection process in between is just part of the API and neither here nor there in a licensing discussion.
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@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
We use a file-server system environment - Maybe that's what he is meaning as "server"
You are using MS SQL Server. What does that exist for, if not to be a database server? If you turn it off, does nothing break?
We are using MS Sql Express - yes. It's needed for the database in New versions of Aloha manager.
If we turn it off, the point of sale doesnt get the changes made.So you are running a database server that absolutely requires server licensing. Ergo, it's not licensed.
Okay.
You point these things out - however Point of Sales have been running like this for decades. Why was it not brought up prior.Because you didn't ask anyone prior. How would we know if you didn't tell us?
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
We use a file-server system environment - Maybe that's what he is meaning as "server"
You are using MS SQL Server. What does that exist for, if not to be a database server? If you turn it off, does nothing break?
We are using MS Sql Express - yes. It's needed for the database in New versions of Aloha manager.
If we turn it off, the point of sale doesnt get the changes made.So you are running a database server that absolutely requires server licensing. Ergo, it's not licensed.
Okay.
You point these things out - however Point of Sales have been running like this for decades. Why was it not brought up prior.Because you didn't ask anyone prior. How would we know if you didn't tell us?
Or maybe It's because I dont have the exact information and only telling you what I know - Is that possible?
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@donaldlandru said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
I'll go out on a limb and infer the if Oracle was directing people to pirate Microsoft licensing, Microsoft would be saying something about it.
This has been the standard excuse people have always used and holds no water.
- In no way whatsoever is YOUR licensing requirements any of Oracle's concern or place to inform you anything. Zero, zip, nada. You are assuming a legal advisory role from them that no software vendor will ever make.
- Never, ever does Oracle tell you to pirate software. They inform you of which OSes they are willing to provide support. There is no relationship between that and what you are stating.
- Windows 7 is legal to use in this way in some jurisdictions where Oracle provides support and Microsoft does not have licensing rights (example: China, Bolivia, Cuba, Iran.)
- This is completely standard to state where it works and is tested, all vendors do this.
- Microsoft and Oracle have no relationship about this and Microsoft has zero right to say anything about it. You are assuming a legal position between them that does not exist.
- Licensing is between you and Microsoft. Oracle has no way to know what you have worked out and MS has every right to change licensing. Oracle would be insane to voluntarily try to police something they have no right or power to police.
- All liability for piracy and all moral obligation to not pirate is on the customer, Oracle is not part of the equation. The one and only person who has a responsibility for this is the customer choosing what licensing is needed.
- There ARE scenarios where you are allowed to use it in this way, such as single machine deployments, and development environments. Just because it is legal somewhere doesn't imply it is legal everywhere.
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@WrCombs In my opinion you arent doing anything wrong. You did not make the decision to run it like this. Someone else did and that mistake is theirs.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
If SQL Server is there for no function whatsoever, then it might not qualify as a server. But if that is the case, turn it off as that is certainly using a lot of resources that can't be afforded on such an ancient machine.
The way new aloha manager works, from what I'm told- It breaks the changes down into the sql. Then it imports into the file folders and sends the change to the front of house.
SQL is needed for information to pass along to the front of house.Yup. A bit weird, but doesn't change that SQL Server is being used and is needed. That there is another connection process in between is just part of the API and neither here nor there in a licensing discussion.
Scott,
Clarify, are you saying his "register" systems need to be running Windows Server or that he needs to be running the paid version of SQL Server instead of SQL Express?
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@WrCombs If it is running and using server software then that machine is acting as a server. I think that is what is meant. Hope that makes sense.
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@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
Or maybe It's because I dont have the exact information and only telling you what I know - Is that possible?
You are in the US. You aren't the US government. You have a database server running on a Windows workstation. Those facts are enough to know that this is standard, by the textbook MS software piracy. Every little shop does it and nearly always get away with it, and since "their friends do it", they just keep doing it.
Working in the MSP space, the amount of piracy that you see is insane. Once in a while it is truly accidental, but the majority of the time, it is not. knowing that it is hard to get caught is enough that people claim incompetence and do it even after being informed what it is.
This is one of those cases that really shows "never attribute to incompetence what could be predicted through self preservation."
And this has been discussed a lot here and other forums. We've dug into the licensing many times and it's well documented and very clear what the EULA states the OS can be used for. And MS has joined the conversations before as well and confirmed this.
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@donaldlandru said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
Clarify, are you saying his "register" systems need to be running Windows Server or that he needs to be running the paid version of SQL Server instead of SQL Express?
SQL Server Express is fully legal to use as a server up to its limits which, almost entirely, are "mechanically" enforced by the software. It is extremely hard to violate the MS SQL Server Express license and doing so could never be accidental.
The issue is using any service from a Windows 7 workstation. What that service is is irrelevant. Common example that we use of something that requires Windows Server and people conveniently overlook is Spiceworks. SW is free and has no licensing needs itself, but because it is a server service, it must run on Windows Server OSes.
Windows 7, 8, 8.1, or 10 can "never" be used "like a server". Anything on them, whether SQL Server, Spiceworks, a custom app, you name it, requires Windows Server OS and Windows Server CAL licensing to be allowed to be run on a Windows OS. This is just accepted when a company chooses a Windows ecosystem, it's the most fundamental factor of that decision when Windows is first chosen.
So in this case, there is a database service that is providing services consumed by other machines (the registers) and therefore must run from a Windows Server OS.
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@jmoore said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs If it is running and using server software then that machine is acting as a server. I think that is what is meant. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, it's a duck situation. If you don't want to get into legalise of the EULA...
If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's a duck.
If it looks like a server and acts like a server, it's a server.
In this case, it couldn't look more like a server. It's clearly "the server", it is provides multiple services to other machines and people, and both the actions it performs (database server) and the product it runs (MS SQL Server) have "server" in the names. No grey area, it's as server as a server can be.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@jmoore said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs If it is running and using server software then that machine is acting as a server. I think that is what is meant. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, it's a duck situation. If you don't want to get into legalise of the EULA...
If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's a duck.
If it looks like a server and acts like a server, it's a server.
In this case, it couldn't look more like a server. It's clearly "the server", it is provides multiple services to other machines and people, and both the actions it performs (database server) and the product it runs (MS SQL Server) have "server" in the names. No grey area, it's as server as a server can be.
I'm not disputing that it is a server - I think there was confusion here - I know that it is acting like a server so therefore it is a server.
The confusion came from the question of "what makes this a server" up above. -
@jmoore said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs In my opinion you arent doing anything wrong. You did not make the decision to run it like this. Someone else did and that mistake is theirs.
Absolutely. But add this to your list of "my employer is pirating software and can't claim to be competent or a CIO and not know better." As techs, many of us are not tasked with understanding licensing. But anyone accepting the CIO hat (by running the IT department) legally accepts that responsibility.
This does two things...
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Provides more foundation for what we've been telling you... that these are bad people doing bad things poorly. They aren't good mentors, nor good people. Yes, people make mistakes. Yes, licensing is a little hard at times. But this is totally predictable from how you've described them in other ways. If this was an isolated situation, sure, we might say to mention it to them and let them fix it (at insane cost, and admitting to store after store that they screwed up the most basic stuff that they should have known.) But you know that they won't consider that and will be really mad if you tell them. We know this, you know it. It's just that this helps you understand that you aren't learning from these guys, they aren't providing you with benefits.
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You have more to keep under your belt. If they piss you off, or just when you leave in general, you know that they are stealing software. Likely a lot of it. If they have as many as two of these deployments, that one thing alone puts them in the category of grand theft. This could be a pretty massive piracy operation that they have going on. And they get paid to do this on behalf of the customers. Each customer is actually on the hook for this licensing, the consultancy would not be looking at licensing violations themselves, but criminal negligence and potentially organized crime laws (as they are essentially running a piracy ring - getting paid to steal software on behalf of the clients.) That would depend on how MS' lawyers decided to skin the cat.
But understanding those aspects are important. But none of it is your fault. You aren't in charge of licenses, you aren't in charge of installs. So you aren't the one stealing the software or making someone steal the software.
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@jmoore said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@WrCombs If it is running and using server software then that machine is acting as a server. I think that is what is meant. Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, it's a duck situation. If you don't want to get into legalise of the EULA...
If it looks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's a duck.
If it looks like a server and acts like a server, it's a server.
In this case, it couldn't look more like a server. It's clearly "the server", it is provides multiple services to other machines and people, and both the actions it performs (database server) and the product it runs (MS SQL Server) have "server" in the names. No grey area, it's as server as a server can be.
Yea the sticky situation of, by all definitions this is wrong; however, there is not much I can change. All likelihood even selecting a different point of service product needs the same topology and may even prevent you from using it in the "legal" manner.
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@WrCombs said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
I'm not disputing that it is a server - I think there was confusion here - I know that it is acting like a server so therefore it is a server.
The confusion came from the question of "what makes this a server" up above.Not saying that you are. I mean that in Microsoft licensing terms, it's a server. What people like to claim is that MS Workstation OSes can be servers "unless we need the physical functions only available in the server OS." This is where they are making things up. The commonly stated (but not held) belief is that there are exceptions and that things that are obviously a server don't need server licensing.
But in the MS licensing world, they use the duck system. If it is "like" a server, it has to be licensed as a server. So knowing it is a server is one thing, knowing that being a server requires a server license is another.
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@donaldlandru said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
Yea the sticky situation of, by all definitions this is wrong; however, there is not much I can change. All likelihood even selecting a different point of service product needs the same topology and may even prevent you from using it in the "legal" manner.
No vendor is going to block you from deploying legally. You could eat them alive - because they have no supported option in that case. You could go public and destroy them. Oracle, Aloha, etc. are all happy, thrilled in fact, for you to deploy properly on a server OS. They just don't make those decisions for you as it isn't their place. But they don't want you running on desktop hardware or software. That's not in their interest.
There will be zero barrier to legal deployment, other than it being more costly and lots of companies asking point blank "of course we are okay with stealing the software, the question is can we get away with it?" And when you say "almost certainly you'll get away with it", they will pirate, almost every time.
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@donaldlandru said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
With that said, Oracle Xstore is not even supported on Windows Server.
What this means is that the product simply isn't supported anywhere in the first world. It has no supported stack. For something to be "supported" in IT terms requires support end to end. With Xstore, this means that they don't have any support stack.
Lots of really crappy hobby class vendors (Oracle is this for sure) do this as a trick to guarantee zero legal accountability for support. If you run a desktop OS, they can claim that that isn't a server product and they can't support you (and they can threaten to turn you over to MS if they want - they have bilateral agreements for this through the BSA.) And if you don't run on a desktop OS, they can claim you don't fall under their support. This guarantees them an "out" to not support you no matter what you do. There is no possible end to end support path, none. It's impossible.
In IT terms, it simply means that it is an unsupported product. Across the board. It simply exists without support. Caveat emptor. Anyone buying it simply can't tell their companies that they got a supported product. They paid for commercial, closed source software without a support agreement. Oracle may or may not provide support, but is never required to. It's purely at their discretion.
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All licensing aside, @WrCombs what is the memory situation now?
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@scottalanmiller said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
@donaldlandru said in Windows 7 Pro 32 bit - Low on Memory... Ideas?:
With that said, Oracle Xstore is not even supported on Windows Server.
What this means is that the product simply isn't supported anywhere in the first world. It has no supported stack. For something to be "supported" in IT terms requires support end to end. With Xstore, this means that they don't have any support stack.
Lots of really crappy hobby class vendors (Oracle is this for sure) do this as a trick to guarantee zero legal accountability for support. If you run a desktop OS, they can claim that that isn't a server product and they can't support you (and they can threaten to turn you over to MS if they want - they have bilateral agreements for this through the BSA.) And if you don't run on a desktop OS, they can claim you don't fall under their support. This guarantees them an "out" to not support you no matter what you do. There is no possible end to end support path, none. It's impossible.
In IT terms, it simply means that it is an unsupported product. Across the board. It simply exists without support. Caveat emptor. Anyone buying it simply can't tell their companies that they got a supported product. They paid for commercial, closed source software without a support agreement. Oracle may or may not provide support, but is never required to. It's purely at their discretion.
Scott I just found this article.
https://logicalread.com/sql-server-express-as-a-production-database/#.XKZF-VVKjRY
Does this hold an real validation?
