Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job? And what's stopping you from grabbing the employers' confidential data and running to the competition? NDA's and job descriptions are a typical part of any normal contract, and I mean "contract" as a document describing the employer-employee relationship, not necessarily with an outside contractor, but also with a full or part time employee. If you want to call that document by another name - please feel free to do so
Stealing data is always a crime, there is no need for a contact about that. What country makes data theft legal? That's what is insane. It's unbelievable that you have countries that would enforce a contract, but not make theft illegal? That's nuts. Just steal the contract then and you can't be touched?
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
What's weird is the need for a contract for normal workers.
Our 'contracts' are just verbal - and fluid. If at any time one side or the other is unhappy... employment can be terminated - just walk away.
Of course those who hide behind the - oh they can't fire me/redundant me without paying me some money.. that's not good for the business.
It isn't about hiding behind anything, it's about protecting the employee and employer from each other. If you have no document stating what your job is, what's stopping the employer from telling you to wash the toilets one day, instead of doing your job?
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Essentially all. It's inherent in the at will status. Even when not stated, it is effectively always there.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
It's insane to think that changes in company need can't be reflected in the existing staff, that makes the staff dramatically less valuable.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
And if that employee simply walks out because of that, and his leaving causes the company significant damage, the company can sue and win?
Hell - When the DC's Scott was in charge of flooded - I'd be surprised if he wasn't part of the cleanup crew of the datacenter. I'm sure that wasn't in his listed job duties, but he did it just the same - assuming he was part of that.
Oh, I'd be helping too in that case. I might as well have used another example (the manager demanding you make him coffee every day maybe, for example). My point is asking you to do something that is completely NOT in your job description.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
The law is what stops you from doing this - at least legally.
What law?
There typically is a piece of paper with this information on it - but it's not a signed thing generally. The paper states the terms of the employment (wages, benefits, vacation, etc) and general job duties, but again, are almost never limited only to those things listed.
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
That is simply horrible.
Normal theft laws.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
Well - that would be pretty awesome - but in the US - you'd just as easily be out on your ass if you refused to do something they legally asked you to do (that didn't also endanger you or others).
No, it wouldn't be awesome. It would be shit. You'd earn far less money because you are far less valuable. That flexibility is a huge part of why Americans earn what they do.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
The idea that a hired person is only doing one job - or one set of duties floors me. Sure, you might only want to be a programmer - but if the owner of the company comes in and asks you to do something, in the US, you're pretty much expected to do it - or risk being let go.
That is simply horrible.
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
Hell - When the DC's Scott was in charge of flooded - I'd be surprised if he wasn't part of the cleanup crew of the datacenter. I'm sure that wasn't in his listed job duties, but he did it just the same - assuming he was part of that.
Ha, I was not. Way too expensive to be doing that stuff. But I could have been, and it would have been completely reasonable. If it would not have taken the core team away from production work.
I know CEOs that take out the trash. The "it's not my job" mentality is what makes other countries sound like bad unions. People think that they are better than the executives, and every else's job is beneath them.
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Stealing data is always a crime, there is no need for a contact about that. What country makes data theft legal? That's what is insane. It's unbelievable that you have countries that would enforce a contract, but not make theft illegal? That's nuts. Just steal the contract then and you can't be touched?
It isn't theft if I am an account manager, and I simply walk away to a competitor, and start calling the folks I've been selling to, and getting them to switch over to my new employer. Typically (yes, not in the US I suppose), you have a contract stating you cannot do that, or that you can't work for a direct competitor for X years after you leave. Not in a piece of paper somewhere, but in a contract you sign, if you want to work there.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Well - that would be pretty awesome - but in the US - you'd just as easily be out on your ass if you refused to do something they legally asked you to do (that didn't also endanger you or others).
The US sounds worse and worse with every post here
You aren't selling Canada here. You are making them sound like underpaid snobs with no basic protection laws. It's like a poor wild west - contracts are enforced, but theft is legal? Manual labour is "beneath" everyone. I don't want employee attitudes like that in my shop. We feel it is unethical to view manual labour as "less" than white collar work. It's paid less, that's just market dynamics. But it's considered really, really bad to view those positions as being "lesser".
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
And if that employee simply walks out because of that, and his leaving causes the company significant damage, the company can sue and win?
Sue him for WHAT? He's allowed to quite ANY TIME. There is NOTHING to sue him over.
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
It's insane to think that changes in company need can't be reflected in the existing staff, that makes the staff dramatically less valuable.
Great point - so... in that situation what happens in Europe?
Today we have 5 IT people all supporting Windows. The company decides to switch to Linux. Does this mean that those 5 IT people are all fired? I mean the company is going to Linux, so they aren't really 'redundant', so what's it called?
Now assuming that European company wants to be nice - I suppose they could offer new employment contracts to those 5 IT persons, the new contract states support Linux..
But what if they don't want that changed contract? Is the company then forced to pay them 3+ months redundancy, even though they aren't actually redundant, but in fact simply irrelevant to the company now?
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Oh, I'd be helping too in that case. I might as well have used another example (the manager demanding you make him coffee every day maybe, for example). My point is asking you to do something that is completely NOT in your job description.
You'd be helping, BUT you could sue for having been asked to help? Sounds awful.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Stealing data is always a crime, there is no need for a contact about that. What country makes data theft legal? That's what is insane. It's unbelievable that you have countries that would enforce a contract, but not make theft illegal? That's nuts. Just steal the contract then and you can't be touched?
It isn't theft if I am an account manager, and I simply walk away to a competitor, and start calling the folks I've been selling to, and getting them to switch over to my new employer. Typically (yes, not in the US I suppose), you have a contract stating you cannot do that, or that you can't work for a direct competitor for X years after you leave. Not in a piece of paper somewhere, but in a contract you sign, if you want to work there.
Actually, that IS theft. Its' that simple.
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
You are hired to do IT work, the tech isn't usually mentioned. But in my experience, if a manager suddenly asks you to become a truck driver for the company, you can refuse. If he's not happy with that, he can fire you, and pay the lawful compensation.
It's insane to think that changes in company need can't be reflected in the existing staff, that makes the staff dramatically less valuable.
If a company I work for as a sysadmin suddenly decides I have to also be an accountant, I should be able to refuse, and if that leads to a termination, I should be compensated for the company's flimsiness, and not just get thrown out to the street
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Granted - most companies aren't going to ask their highly paid IT personal to scrub toilets, but it could happen.
And if that employee simply walks out because of that, and his leaving causes the company significant damage, the company can sue and win?
No - they can't sue. And as Scott said, the company should already be prepared for him to die from a bus crash, so while it might be painful for the company, it shouldn't cripple them.
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@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@Dashrender said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
In many if not most job descriptions in the US, it includes "additional duties as assigned." So yes, that means they can ask - and require - you to clean toilets... is that somehow beneath you?
Yes it is, if that is not in my job description. I've done my bit of menial labour when I had to, but I didn't study and build a career in IT to do things that are not my direct responsibility.
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
It's insane to think that changes in company need can't be reflected in the existing staff, that makes the staff dramatically less valuable.
Great point - so... in that situation what happens in Europe?
Today we have 5 IT people all supporting Windows. The company decides to switch to Linux. Does this mean that those 5 IT people are all fired? I mean the company is going to Linux, so they aren't really 'redundant', so what's it called?
Yes, in the UK that's called redundant. They don't use the dictionary definition, they use it to sound better than "unneeded", but it's poor English.
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@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Sue him for WHAT? He's allowed to quite ANY TIME. There is NOTHING to sue him over.
He was in the middle of a project, and his leaving made the company drop the project and lose millions due to missed deadlines and suing customers. Seen that happen, actually.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
That's why the US is more able to respond to changes. We can hire people to do anything. I hire you to work on Windows today, but we change to Linux, you can't refuse to work on that, instead. You are free to quit, to demand different money, whatever.
You are hired to do IT work, the tech isn't usually mentioned. But in my experience, if a manager suddenly asks you to become a truck driver for the company, you can refuse. If he's not happy with that, he can fire you, and pay the lawful compensation.
Right, same here. You can ALWAYS refuse, even to do the work you were hired to do. I think you are trying to apply logical US laws piece by piece in a system that isn't "at will" and what you are actually seeing is the insanity of not being an at will employee. You can get sued for everything. But in the US you can quit anytime, for any reason. Period. So you always have more protection than you have.
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@dyasny said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
@scottalanmiller said in Never Give More than Two Weeks Notice:
Sue him for WHAT? He's allowed to quite ANY TIME. There is NOTHING to sue him over.
He was in the middle of a project, and his leaving made the company drop the project and lose millions due to missed deadlines and suing customers. Seen that happen, actually.
Sure, but that's the company's fault for not having been properly staff. There is still NOTHING to sue him over, he's done literally nothing wrong.
