Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@coliver said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
Creatures also need to be able to see the pattern, if they are anywhere with in the 30 foot bubble and have something blocking their view, even partially, then it has no effect.
Correct and it is an instant thing. Also ANY damage breaks it. Suddenly your people are out of it.. Throw rocks at them. Cast a low damage AoE spell and intentionally hit your allies.
Not to mention, the DM should use it on the party also.
I'm not confused as to how it works. It's 120 feet affecting a 30 foot cube. It's incredibly easy to hit multiple enemies and cc them for a long time with zero effect to the party
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@coliver said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@coliver said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
Creatures also need to be able to see the pattern, if they are anywhere with in the 30 foot bubble and have something blocking their view, even partially, then it has no effect.
Correct and it is an instant thing. Also ANY damage breaks it. Suddenly your people are out of it.. Throw rocks at them. Cast a low damage AoE spell and intentionally hit your allies.
Not to mention, the DM should use it on the party also.
It does say "Any Creature" so that should include player characters.
Also correct. There is nothing in this spell effect to say that it does not affect the bard's friends.
This is not different than a fireball dropped by the wizard. It affects everyone in the AoE.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. I'm talking about 5 ft. squares on Roll20 and something like fireball perfectly hitting every enemy but not allies because you are exactly out of range. IE a perfect shot. I just think perfectly aiming spells and abilities is kind of stupid. Has nothing to do with hypnotic pattern. It's any spell.
Instead of casting it directly on the enemy, I cast it one square to the right and three squares up. Now three enemies are included in the aoe and my rogue is just slightly out of range. That kind of markmanship, perfectly aiming every spell. Even if I rolled a 14 and barely hit my target in the case of something that is not a save.
If your DM is not calling for a spellcraft check to do that, then that is, yet again, your DM failing to do his job.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
I'm not confused as to how it works. It's 120 feet affecting a 30 foot cube. It's incredibly easy to hit multiple enemies and cc them for a long time with zero effect to the party
You are totally missing the point. Let's break this down.
- if you are dong it 120' away, then there is no reason the DM should have everyone grouped in a handy bundle. unless there is terrain.
- if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
- just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.
- if you are doing it 120' away, then there is no reason that the DM could not wake up one or two with someone that was not in range. Once they wake up, it is a chain effect to wake up more.
- there is also no reason that the one you attack cannot decide not to engage whoever attacked him and instead wake up his friends.
- if you are doing it less than 120' away then you could easily affect the party also.
- calling out to the party to warn them (even if you use a code word) can cause alert enemies to react to save themselves.
- this is a free immediate action that can ALWAYS be taken.
- no matter how far away you cast, a player with spellcraft can make a roll to know what you are casting as an immediate action (or maybe reaction, I forget) and potentially warn his allies.
- It is a 3rd level spell of which a bard only gets 3 uses of until a long rest.
- yes you can use higher level slots to power a lower level spell, but that is then sacrificing many other potentially more useful spells.
- if you are dong it 120' away, then there is no reason the DM should have everyone grouped in a handy bundle. unless there is terrain.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
Page 252. First spell.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
Anyway, the exact definition of "weaves trough the air" is totally up to DM interpretation.
Because the next sentence states it appears for a moment and vanishes.
I would totally rule that terrain affects the saves.
I rule that it weaves through the air at the target location. not through every inch of the 30' cube.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
Anyway, the exact definition of "weaves trough the air" is totally up to DM interpretation.
Because the next sentence states it appears for a moment and vanishes.
I would totally rule that terrain affects the saves.
I rule that it weaves through the air at the target location. not through every inch of the 30' cube.
I agree with you. We were looking at two different descriptions of the spell and mine wasn't the right one, so thanks for the clarification. There should be a point of origin imo which means it comes from a direction. I'll ask my DM about it.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
Anyway, the exact definition of "weaves trough the air" is totally up to DM interpretation.
Because the next sentence states it appears for a moment and vanishes.
I would totally rule that terrain affects the saves.
I rule that it weaves through the air at the target location. not through every inch of the 30' cube.
I agree with you. We were looking at two different descriptions of the spell and mine wasn't the right one, so thanks for the clarification. There should be a point of origin imo which means it comes from a direction. I'll ask my DM about it.
Make him answer this: "If there is not a point of origin where is kinda weaves like a scintillating ribon in mid air, then are you trying to tell me that this spell flash fills a full 30' cube with a color pattern?"
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
if there is terrain, then some enemies also probably cannot see the bard. and thus will not be affected.
just because the AoE is 30' cube does not mean it affects someone that cannot see the bard as stated.What? It does not specify that you need to see the bard. It's like a color grenade dude. You just need to have sight. Not see anything specifically. If you're in the radius of the spell you are affected. What version of the spell did you link? That doesn't look like 5e. This is what I see for 5e:
I pulled that from the 5e PHB.. so try again..
Yes it does say it weaves through the space. I read that.
What page? Maybe I'm using the wrong reference then. That would explain it
Anyway, the exact definition of "weaves trough the air" is totally up to DM interpretation.
Because the next sentence states it appears for a moment and vanishes.
I would totally rule that terrain affects the saves.
I rule that it weaves through the air at the target location. not through every inch of the 30' cube.
I agree with you. We were looking at two different descriptions of the spell and mine wasn't the right one, so thanks for the clarification. There should be a point of origin imo which means it comes from a direction. I'll ask my DM about it.
Make him answer this: "If there is not a point of origin where is kinda weaves like a scintillating ribon in mid air, then are you trying to tell me that this spell flash fills a full 30' cube with a color pattern?"
I actually think that is what he thinks but it's possible he's looking at the wrong description too
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
no matter how far away you cast, a player with spellcraft can make a roll to know what you are casting as an immediate action (or maybe reaction, I forget) and potentially warn his allies.
afaik spellcraft doesn't exist in 5e, I think that is from 3.5 or pathfinder possibly. You could simulate it with an arcana check or something I'm guessing but that's up to you as a DM.
Edit: Actually there is the ability to identify a spell with a reaction or action that was added into xanathar's. Interesting. You can't warn people unless you're doing it on your turn though, which in regards to CC can not be possible depending.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
no matter how far away you cast, a player with spellcraft can make a roll to know what you are casting as an immediate action (or maybe reaction, I forget) and potentially warn his allies.
afaik spellcraft doesn't exist in 5e, I think that is from 3.5 or pathfinder possibly. You could simulate it with an arcana check or something I'm guessing but that's up to you as a DM.
Edit: Actually there is the ability to identify a spell with a reaction or action that was added into xanathar's. Interesting. You can't warn people unless you're doing it on your turn though, which in regards to CC can not be possible depending.
Yes, it is an Arcana check /gasp. I had house ruled that when 5e first came out. Glad someone official pulled their head out of their ass.
The basic concept of reactions to a spell being cast already exist. Read the spell "Counterspell" (PHB page 228).
So putting it all together.
Anyone that uses a reaction to to identify a spell and succeed most certainly can yell out, a free action, and anyone else can react by closing their eyes. It certainly takes their reaction. So if they had some other reason to not have a reaction available, then that would of course come in to play.
This is basic logic, it is also basic role-playing as well as roll-playing.
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@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
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@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
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@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@jaredbusch said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@wirestyle22 said in Pen and Paper RPGs - What's your favorite?:
@JaredBusch Here's one for you. My character is an Arcane Trickster Multiclassed into a Warlock (3 levels for Pact Boon + 2 level 2 spell slots). Next level I get Darkness and Mirror Image. I took the sentinel feat. This is how they are worded.
You'll notice that when you succeed on your roll for mirror image, that the target of the attack changes to an image (pointing this out specifically because of the wording). Now, Sentinel says that when a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
So as a DM would you rule that mirror image would trigger sentinel in this way? It seems incredibly strong even though the rules do seem to permit it.
No. That is not another creature, it is an attack on you that simply did not hit. The new wording of mirror image is horrible. You are not “shifting the attack” in any way. That term is simply a bad mechanical description to help people understand how the misss happens. In previous editions it was stated differently.
The spell creates duplicates within your existing 5’ space. Mark out a square on the ground to get a fee for how small that is, and remember that you are not standing rod straight up fright when in combat.
Here is the 3.5 description for example. Note that they were not all within your 5’ space.
I'm actually glad. I asked my DM and he said he does think that it works that way. I'm just not going to do it. It's like a free OA
Even if it is considered another creature, it is in your square. Not another square within 5’.
Don’t get me wrong, you want to find every opportunity you play to your strengths. If your DM rules it does, then use it. Getting a couple extra opportunity attacks every combat are fairly low impact.
As a rogue you get sneak attack on a reaction, so more impact than usual
Not really more impact than usual because Sneak Attack in 5e is gimped to 1/turn.
Extremely technically, it states once per turn and a reaction does not happen on your turn. I would never rule that assinine, but still.
