When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator
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@scottalanmiller Since when aren't almost all MSPs SMBs too? Or are they silently excluded from that blanket statement?
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Since when aren't almost all MSPs SMBs too? Or are they silently excluded from that blanket statement?
MSP's can hire many different specialists and have them cover multiple contracts offering better support than the contracts they support can offer themselves. As an example you are not likely to see a database admin at a typical SMB
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@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
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@wirestyle22 While this is true, the vast majority of SMBs may have no need for specialists except for infrequent project work, or for one very specific thing on a regular basis. That makes MSPs a sizable money sink versus on-site IT 99% of the time, because MSPs make money providing expertise. If no substantial level of expertise is required, why pay for what amounts to worthless expertise to the SMB in question?
Since SMBs are fighting most MSPs for the same talent.. what makes MSPs automatically superior to the SMBs they serve, especially since they don't have any more resources than the SMBs do to fight for said talent (perhaps even less)?
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. Do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me. I spoke about this before on ML and everyone told me to leave. I did.
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
Exactly. Since they can't see it, then find someone who can. If you need to get some more experience, see if you can setup an inexpensive lab at work while you look for something else.
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I was reading a bit elsewhere where someone mentioned that SMB admins get paid for X task at 1X value and another task at X10 value, so their value is lesser. However, I would like to point out that the value is cumulative, and even enterprise specialists are a dime a dozen, while good SMB admins are not. The value is proportional to the business size, so a 10X value is not the same value to an organization with Y resources versus an enterprise with 1,000,000Y resources.
It's really not as simple as some have suggested it to be, because a million dollars is a crap-ton of money for someone who makes 50k/year, as that's 20 years worth of income if they someone managed to not spend a single penny. For someone who makes 100K/year, it's worth less than half that.. because all the extra resources allow for more investments, and other means through which to amass more resources. Just because Enterprises think something is worth X doesn't change that most SMBs will ascribe a VASTLY different value to that same thing. The two are practically incomparable without acknowledging that needs and value are totally and completely different, because it is a subjective ascription.
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@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
I would imagine it has to do with the people you are working with/for. If you aren't able to overcome it and aren't recognized for pulling their weight, you should prepare your exit. You have the benefit of trying to find a job while you already have one.
It comes down to what my actual worth is as an employee which is not clear
Exactly. Since they can't see it, then find someone who can. If you need to get some more experience, see if you can setup an inexpensive lab at work while you look for something else.
I access my home lab remotely while I'm here
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
However, I would like to point out that the value is cumulative, and even enterprise specialists are a dime a dozen, while good SMB admins are not.
The problem is two fold. One is that it's not cumulative, does not work that way at all. And I can demonstrate that concretely because the tasks can be done by individuals at the respective rates. And enterprise specialists are not a dime a dozen, they are in high demand and earn high wages because of it.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Just because Enterprises think something is worth X doesn't change that most SMBs will ascribe a VASTLY different value to that same thing. The two are practically incomparable without acknowledging that needs and value are totally and completely different, because it is a subjective ascription.
Having worked in both, there is no difference in needed skills. Only generally a difference in the ability to leverage and pay for those skills. SMBs need all the same skills as enterprises do, but have no scale with which to leverage them. They just can't let them work efficiently or stay focused.
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@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wrx7m said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@wirestyle22 One thing that I have been able to do is market myself here. Every time we have reviews, they give me x% of a raise and know that I am going to negotiate more. Only once did I not get what I asked for (this was at 90 days on the job) but I did get more than I had been given.
When dealing with people that manage you and don't have the first clue as to what you do, you have to make sure that they know, you know what you are doing and that you are doing a lot of it. The key is that you overwhelm them with the results of what you have been working on. Results aren't always as tangible. For instance, one of the first things I went through were the GPOs. I spent hours and hours looking at what was in place and went through and re did them. I printed out a copy of the domain-wide GPO and it was quite thick. Then I printed out Visio diagrams of the network infrastructure that I had mapped and revised. Then I was able to compile a list of accomplishments for the previous year and projects that I was currently working on or would be working on the next year. Each year I check them off and add more for the next.
You have to show them things in ways that they understand. Most of the time, it is printed on paper. Now I just stick to the accomplishments and projects lists and save the paper because they know the quality and volume of work that I do for them.
I've done this. It comes down to what they believe. One of my bosses said "We haven't had any issues. do we even need IT?" Not kidding. I even explained for over an hour, everything that I did to make that happen and she just chose not to believe me.
Well, in that case, you need to move on. They won't realize what they had until you are gone. I came here at a great time. After a list of people that didn't really know what they were doing or care enough to do it well then they tried the service provider and were desperate for someone to just make things work well. I almost didn't want the job because it was so much work at first. I was in over my head but I am glad I did. I would take this job again in a heartbeat.
I thought I would enjoy being a part of a team, but I actually prefer working alone. There is no communication here and I find so many things not documented and also completely mis-configured. I end up doing their job for them.
If there is no communications, you are not on a team. You are working as an individual.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
That makes MSPs a sizable money sink versus on-site IT 99% of the time, ....
This is a misunderstanding of MSPs. MSPs are not the opposite of on-site IT. MSPs are neither on site nor off site. Just as internal IT is neither on site nor off site. MSPs are simply external IT organizations instead of internal ones. MSPs are just as available to be on site, 100% full time and 100% dedicated to a single customer as internal IT staff is.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@scottalanmiller Since when aren't almost all MSPs SMBs too? Or are they silently excluded from that blanket statement?
MSPs don't act like SMBs. Because they are a single department. If you are measuring SMB vs. Enterprise purely by head count, yes they would be SMBs. But if you measure them by size and skill of IT organization then they are generally more medium to large business. Even a relatively small MSPs might have the people and resources of hundreds or thousands of SMBs. So in the respects that matter, not an SMB at all.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Since SMBs are fighting most MSPs for the same talent.. what makes MSPs automatically superior to the SMBs they serve, especially since they don't have any more resources than the SMBs do to fight for said talent (perhaps even less)?
A few things...
- Infrastructure. They are professional IT organizations, not lone IT people in another organization. This totally changes the IT value proposition in every imaginable way.
- Ladders. They is a career path.
- They can earn dramatically more because they leverage specialties that SMBs cannot on their own.
- Variety that SMBs cannot offer.
- IT hired by IT. SMBs have generally zero ability to identify and hire good IT because they have no IT without them. MSPs don't have this issue. The degree to which the is advantageous is enormous.
Reverse it. SMBs have no advantages to IT hiring except that they often offer the ability to "do less". If you are non-competitive and looking for an easy ride doing very little, internal SMB IT is the most likely (but no guarantee) of being able to find this. Enterprises tend to keep you really busy and use metrics to watch this. MSPs need to service customers and keep density rates up. But internal IT in an SMB is often overlooked and forgotten. So that one aspect may lure many an IT pro to a long, low key career without upward mobility.
But for anyone looking for career growth and opportunity, education, advancement, peers, mentorship, income, challenge, variety - the SMB lacks in all areas. They have nothing to offer a talented, ambitious IT person vis a vis an MSP.
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@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
I wasn't attempting to imply that IT doesn't get involved hiring other IT, just that that's very far from the norm in the real world as a general rule. It certainly happens, just not nearly as much as some seem to think it does. I've never once interviewed with IT anywhere from government agencies to Fortune 100 enterprises, or SMBs. Sure there must be many that do have IT hire IT, but it's the exception in places that understand how to not be dumb, which is sadly less common than it should be. That was more the point I was making.
In the SMB, where there would normally only be one IT person (and if there isn't only one, that's another issue causing the same problem here) there really can never be IT hiring IT unless an outside IT firm is brought in to do that (I do that stuff if anyone cares.) But outside of the SMB, I've never seen anywhere that had non-IT hire IT except at IBM, where it was the head of department bringing in a CIO level person so a little different. Literally, never seen any company from 1,000 people (totally, not IT) or larger that didn't have IT hiring IT.
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@scottalanmiller said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
@tirendir said in When Is It Okay to Say You Are a System Administrator:
Since SMBs are fighting most MSPs for the same talent.. what makes MSPs automatically superior to the SMBs they serve, especially since they don't have any more resources than the SMBs do to fight for said talent (perhaps even less)?
A few things...
- Infrastructure. They are professional IT organizations, not lone IT people in another organization. This totally changes the IT value proposition in every imaginable way.
- Ladders. They is a career path.
- They can earn dramatically more because they leverage specialties that SMBs cannot on their own.
- Variety that SMBs cannot offer.
- IT hired by IT. SMBs have generally zero ability to identify and hire good IT because they have no IT without them. MSPs don't have this issue. The degree to which the is advantageous is enormous.
Reverse it. SMBs have no advantages to IT hiring except that they often offer the ability to "do less". If you are non-competitive and looking for an easy ride doing very little, internal SMB IT is the most likely (but no guarantee) of being able to find this. Enterprises tend to keep you really busy and use metrics to watch this. MSPs need to service customers and keep density rates up. But internal IT in an SMB is often overlooked and forgotten. So that one aspect may lure many an IT pro to a long, low key career without upward mobility.
But for anyone looking for career growth and opportunity, education, advancement, peers, mentorship, income, challenge, variety - the SMB lacks in all areas. They have nothing to offer a talented, ambitious IT person vis a vis an MSP.
I must have really lucked out. Most of the stuff you said you don't get with an SMB is something I get or made happen here. I am ambitious and have tackled the vast majority of projects myself and I get paid pretty well. I would like to move on at some point but I drive a lot of what happens here so it keeps me learning and growing my skill set. It definitely helps that the company is growing and also looking to increase efficiency of workflows, by way of technology.
