XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective
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@Danp said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
XO is a complex product with lots of features. Would it make sense to offer multiple levels of support (Bronze, Silver, Gold, etc) where you pay for a higher level of support if you need ongoing assistance with specific features?
I don't think so, because it's weird. It's more that you want all the functionality, just on small scales.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The reason that the value of support going down is with community support and self installation anything could be the culprit with both the installer and updater.
So attempting to evaluate that aspect is impossible as the dev team may look at an issue and say "not something I can help you with" but a community member can dig in and assist at no cost.
The big word there is "can"
There is no promise they will be there when you need them.And in this case if you have support you also have an appliance, so no self install.
That's debatable. Which is more reliable, the promise that the ML community will be here or the promise that some vendor will? Have you ever had a vendor go out of business or not provide support? Has ML ever gone away? I'm not saying that vendor support isn't a good thing. I'm just saying that paying and getting promises aren't the same as guarantees. At some point, reliable community best effort will surpass a vendor promise.
And for most, when that happens, you move onto a new product.
You can't just replace your hypervisor and SPoG in an instance. Sure you can do it, but it takes planning & time, which cost money.
Not many choices if the vendor has failed.
This is all I was saying.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
Secretary? Receptionist?
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
Yeah... if the vendor is there to fix the issue, why are you needed at all?
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@matteo-nunziati said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
I agree only if you mean that the SMB market in Europe will never pay for a service. But most of market in Europe is SMB.
Are you sure? Everything I've seen first hand and heard from Europeans talking about problems in the space has been that there is SOHO everywhere, obviously, but then huge gaps where SMB struggles because of regulations and mindset and only larger companies have a tendency to make it.
err... ok give me your definition of SME and SMB. Litteraly translated to italian for me is:
SOHO < SMB < SME < Enterprise.
Most is SOHO and SMB, but services go to SME and enterprise. small companies don't buy!
SOHO < SMB < SME < Large < Enterprise
In the US, SMBs buy a lot, way more than the SME. Because they are a giant market segment. There is no barrier in regulations or from financing between SOHO and SME. Going from SOHO to SME is a clean, gradual step. Talking to companies in Europe, they say that there are large barriers to getting financing in the SMB range because financing only happens if they act like SMEs which makes them inefficient as SMBs and struggle to function.
OK, so yes that's right. basically you stop at SMB unless you really push hard and make a huge leap forward blindfolded, hoping in not collapsing in the trial. Then you land in the SME segment.
Even in EU SMB is a giant segment but they do NOT buy mosty for the mindset not for regulations. regulations discourage the creation of big companies, but has nothing to do with buying services. In my experience it is the mindset which "let's do everything in house has we have not to pay a consultant".
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Danp that was exactly my recommendation.
Different teirs of priority, not functionality
Yes postgres here works that way: look!
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
Yeah... if the vendor is there to fix the issue, why are you needed at all?
That's what always confuses me. Once you are handing the work over to the vendor, all you need is someone with a vendor list and phone numbers, call it in and let them do the work. Now if the vendors almost never fixed the issue and you normally fixed it internally first, well sure. Like when at the big bank, the vendor would double check our fixes, but never provided the fixes. They were only there to confirm that we didn't do something foolish. Never once did we use them for the actual fix - although one time we needed them to tell us what the correct options were for an undocumented setting, but that was a shortcoming of the vendor and one that I ended up documenting publicly and now no one needs the vendor again
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@scottalanmiller HSBC is the vendor right?
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
Secretary? Receptionist?
They are busy doing those jobs. and I'm an internal employee - it's my job to handle these calls.
The vendor along can't work on your systems, unless you have an agreement in place that basically says - you call them, they remote in and take care of things.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller HSBC is the vendor right?
I don't follow.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The value of support is only worthwhile if I don't have to install it myself. From there all support goes out the window and falls to the community to help with.
I totally understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to evaluate supports worthiness when there is community support as well.
So you're saying that you find zero value in support from the vendor?
When I buy something like Veeam, vendor support is one of the most valuable things I feel that I get. Sure I might not use it much, but when shit hits the fan, the ability to get help fast from those that know the product is awesome.That said, I continue to be amazed at how mostly fast I can get help from community forums, but they are often still slower than direct support from the vendor, but this does not preclude a fees times where the forums where faster.
I've essentially never used vendor support. I've never used it from any operating system, platform, storage, backup or enterprise app vendor. Hardware, yes of course, there is no way around that. It wasn't until being in Spiceworks that even realized how people could use those vendors. As the IT guy, I was always led to believe that knowing the product and fixing it was my job since the non-IT people could just engage the vendor if that's what they were going to do.
I agree that having that support option is really valuable, but gauging its value can be tough. What IS the value of a service that I can pretty safely say there is zero chance I will use?
You've said this before, and for you, I don't find this overly surprising, but for us mere mortals, I know that I start by opening a call to a vendor for support, and while they are helping me (they are the specialists in this software/thing - right?) I am also doing my own research trying to fix the issue.
I suppose perhaps some would say I've possibly wasted a few minutes setting up the call with the vendor, especially if I find the answer quickly, but in the cases where I have called, it's pretty rare that I find a solution first.
But then let me ask... what's your role? Why were you needed in this case? If the support is going to come from the vendor, why not just use the vendor?
Who's going to call the vendor and work the problem from the client side?
Secretary? Receptionist?
They are busy doing those jobs. and I'm an internal employee - it's my job to handle these calls.
The vendor along can't work on your systems, unless you have an agreement in place that basically says - you call them, they remote in and take care of things.
But those are clearly the things are you expecting them to do. To handle it for you.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller HSBC is the vendor right?
I don't follow.
Nevermind.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
They are busy doing those jobs. and I'm an internal employee - it's my job to handle these calls.
Right, but are you needed if a secretary could do it instead? They are busy doing "those" jobs, then why are you doing that job for them? Calling a vendor to schedule work is normally considered a secretarial job. In the way that you describe the use, at least.
Given that you HAVE an idle internal person and the secretaries are busy, it makes sense that you are taking their offload. I'm not saying that that doesn't make sense. What I'm asking is - why not just have enough secretaries for far less money?
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
The vendor along can't work on your systems, unless you have an agreement in place that basically says - you call them, they remote in and take care of things.
Why not? It's not an IT task to grant access to systems. Once installed, this would be a simple matter of permission. Like with Scale, you call, they give you a code, you type it in, done. No IT needed if you just want the vendor to support you. Same with any Linux system, just pop in a support command for your vendor, done.
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What's more, support possibilities with XOA could be built.
Bronze we'll get to you in 4 hours during normal business hours
Silver we'll get to you in 2 hours during normal business hours
Gold we'll get to you under 2 hours 24/7
Platinum we'll get to you within the hour 24/7All of which could be managed with a remote support utility as being discussed now.
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@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
They are busy doing those jobs. and I'm an internal employee - it's my job to handle these calls.
Right, but are you needed if a secretary could do it instead? They are busy doing "those" jobs, then why are you doing that job for them? Calling a vendor to schedule work is normally considered a secretarial job. In the way that you describe the use, at least.
Given that you HAVE an idle internal person and the secretaries are busy, it makes sense that you are taking their offload. I'm not saying that that doesn't make sense. What I'm asking is - why not just have enough secretaries for far less money?
Well - then what good does support really do - you seem to be implying that vendor support is pointless, because if you have another avenue to support that is less expensive, then vendor support is pointless.
Let's talk about a specific product - XOA. I buy XOA, you expect what? The IT pro to scour forums, reading whitepapers, error reports, etc - and NEVER call into XOA for support, even though I paid for it? That seems like you are leaving a resource on the table.
I'm not saying that the IT person doesn't scour forums, read whitepapers, error reports, etc. Not saying that. I'm saying that calling Support is just one more tool in the box.
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@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@scottalanmiller said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
@Dashrender said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
They are busy doing those jobs. and I'm an internal employee - it's my job to handle these calls.
Right, but are you needed if a secretary could do it instead? They are busy doing "those" jobs, then why are you doing that job for them? Calling a vendor to schedule work is normally considered a secretarial job. In the way that you describe the use, at least.
Given that you HAVE an idle internal person and the secretaries are busy, it makes sense that you are taking their offload. I'm not saying that that doesn't make sense. What I'm asking is - why not just have enough secretaries for far less money?
Well - then what good does support really do - you seem to be implying that vendor support is pointless, because if you have another avenue to support that is less expensive, then vendor support is pointless.
Let's talk about a specific product - XOA. I buy XOA, you expect what? The IT pro to scour forums, reading whitepapers, error reports, etc - and NEVER call into XOA for support, even though I paid for it? That seems like you are leaving a resource on the table.
I'm not saying that the IT person doesn't scour forums, read whitepapers, error reports, etc. Not saying that. I'm saying that calling Support is just one more tool in the box.
But what you are saying for things that aren't support issues (ie my backup failed) that you should still call support to have them investigate it.
There are somethings that you are responsible for. The code its self and updates shouldn't be one of them though.
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@DustinB3403 said in XOA Pricing Model - What might it look like from a US perspective:
But what you are saying for things that aren't support issues (ie my backup failed) that you should still call support to have them investigate it.
This is a good one - Originally I was going to say I didn't say that. But I guess I really did. Frankly this is where you put your IT pants on.
For a single failed backup, I'd do some personal research first, but if after an hour, perhaps less, I couldn't realize why it was failing, and I have support - hell yah I'm going to call. Because now I'm potentially wasting time trying to find the solution alone, when I could have a team of experts helping me find a solution.How is this after different than posting on a forum? Really? I see a problem, OMG shit's broke, I don't know the instant fix - make a posting on ML, then start digging around the interwebs trying to fix the problem.
instead of posting to ML, I'm just saying that if a support contract is in place, why wouldn't I use it?
