Benefits of using open source GPL software
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@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Ability to change the code. Sure this is much more likely to be used than audit-ability, but still pretty low on the actual number I'm guessing that actually change the source code.
Again, doesn't matter how many DO change it, all benefit from those that do. It's a mistake to think of it in terms of being a benefit only that you actually look at it or actually change it. Being able to is a benefit even to those that are not doing it.
I ask the question because it's almost a faith based thing for me right now. I would think they would be, but are they?
I'm flabbergasted by the question. Yes, obviously they are. Thousands of companies have departments for this. Some companies do basically nothing but this. Tens of thousands of volunteers do this individually every day. We likely all know lots of people that do this. @stacksofplates does. That alone is proof.
Do most companies that use GPL do it? No, of course not, but that doesn't matter. Everyone uses GPL code every day. But insane amounts of it get audited. Loads by people, and tons and tons more by automation. There are whole companies that do only this. It's like you are asking if IT departments and support companies even do their jobs in the enterprise or if the whole thing is a farce.
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@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
people only pay because their only other choice is leaving the platform completely.
Which, thanks for that being my only choice by the way because it's the right choice
Are you sure it's the right choice? How often is "trapped" the best business choice?
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@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Hold on. You're saying that because RedHat is open source, they they can't hold you hostage for support? I suppose that's true, but it doesn't keep 1000's of companies from paying them millions in support fees anyway.
By choice, which is fine by me
We were specifically talking about MS - I don't see them holding anyone hostage for huge support fees. In fact, the most recent posting here had a person say they paid $250 for a single ticket to work on a Exchange problem. That seems VERY reasonable to me. One time call, no time limit on length of call, etc. A call like that to NTG would probably been 3-5x that minimum. That's nothing against NTG, but they are an hourly support company. In this cause MS gives near unlimited time to resolve a problem for their flat rate. Granted, the caller had to figure out how to phrase the question to fit inside one of MSs boxes, where NTG would not turned them away at regardless of setup, but in this case, and most others I've ran into, MS has done fine by it's customers in terms of support.
Microsoft does not guarantee that they can fix your problem either though and it's their own OS. So they can just cut it off when they want to essentially.
And if the issue is with their OS, they can simply hide it or refuse the fix. And they do, all the time. No guarantees, it's a case by case decision. Mostly their one price support is for your issues, not theirs, things that are not in their scope anyway.
Right, I've mentioned this before also. How do you know that there wasn't a hard coded password somewhere in the OS and they put out a KB that has a description of "bug fix for Excel"?
Exactly. Closed source doesn't hide things from the bad guys, it hides things from customers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
people only pay because their only other choice is leaving the platform completely.
Which, thanks for that being my only choice by the way because it's the right choice
Are you sure it's the right choice? How often is "trapped" the best business choice?
Leaving the platform entirely? Yeah
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Other than being free to use, what value does this give the people using it?
Open source does NOT mean free to use. It means free to support, inspect and modify. Often it is free to use, but that is not implied by the term open source nor by the GPL license.
OH? the GPL license doesn't mean that anything licensed under GPL has to be given away free?
No, definitely not. This is why they are so adamant that it is "free as in freedom, not free as in beer." Remember the term is "open source". The source code is open (visible), no words in there implying gratis.
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@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Other than being free to use, what value does this give the people using it?
Open source does NOT mean free to use. It means free to support, inspect and modify. Often it is free to use, but that is not implied by the term open source nor by the GPL license.
OH? the GPL license doesn't mean that anything licensed under GPL has to be given away free?
Source code, that's all. Not a fully built and functioning version.
And you only have to give away the source if someone gets the binary legitimately. If you use GPL software internally, you need never give even the source away.
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Hold on. You're saying that because RedHat is open source, they they can't hold you hostage for support? I suppose that's true, but it doesn't keep 1000's of companies from paying them millions in support fees anyway.
By choice, which is fine by me
We were specifically talking about MS - I don't see them holding anyone hostage for huge support fees. In fact, the most recent posting here had a person say they paid $250 for a single ticket to work on a Exchange problem. That seems VERY reasonable to me. One time call, no time limit on length of call, etc. A call like that to NTG would probably been 3-5x that minimum. That's nothing against NTG, but they are an hourly support company. In this cause MS gives near unlimited time to resolve a problem for their flat rate. Granted, the caller had to figure out how to phrase the question to fit inside one of MSs boxes, where NTG would not turned them away at regardless of setup, but in this case, and most others I've ran into, MS has done fine by it's customers in terms of support.
Microsoft does not guarantee that they can fix your problem either though and it's their own OS. So they can just cut it off when they want to essentially.
So can any support.
That's not at all true. What would make you say that?
I feel like you keep carrying your bad experiences with Microsoft and applying them to other situations. Your SLA determines if other vendors can stop support or not and I can tell you for a fact, RH and IBM don't have the option to just "quit" or give up on many of their SLAs.
yes they do! The SLA grants them that. As you've been saying for years, the SLA allows them to just pay the fine/fee for the SLA and move on. I'm not saying they do abandon their customers, but they could.
As for me carrying my bad impression of MS forward - I have quite the opposite opinion of MS than you do. Granted my problems have never been found to be a code problem in MS code, and they have ALWAYS found a solution to my issues, and they worked them to completion.
I am glad that I have not had your litany of problems with MS support where they tell you to pound sand.
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@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
people only pay because their only other choice is leaving the platform completely.
Which, thanks for that being my only choice by the way because it's the right choice
Are you sure it's the right choice? How often is "trapped" the best business choice?
Leaving the platform entirely? Yeah
Why? Seems like the incredibly obvious business solution given the limited info available.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
yes they do! The SLA grants them that. As you've been saying for years, the SLA allows them to just pay the fine/fee for the SLA and move on. I'm not saying they do abandon their customers, but they could.
Except the big enterprise open source SLAs say that they CAN'T give up.
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
people only pay because their only other choice is leaving the platform completely.
Which, thanks for that being my only choice by the way because it's the right choice
Are you sure it's the right choice? How often is "trapped" the best business choice?
Leaving the platform entirely? Yeah
Why? Seems like the incredibly obvious business solution given the limited info available.
I pray that Microsoft makes themselves obsolete here in that way
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
As for me carrying my bad impression of MS forward - I have quite the opposite opinion of MS than you do.
I agree. But I think that it is the opposite of what you think that it is. I have a lot of faith in MS. You feel like you have a lot of faith in them, but your responses to things suggest the opposite. I think that you don't trust them at all, but use that to not trust others. I think I trust MS dramatically more than you do, regardless of your anecdotal success with support. I've never needed MS support for their OSes, ever. Not once. So once could say that my anecdotal success with them is dramatically better than yours.
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@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Other than being free to use, what value does this give the people using it?
Open source does NOT mean free to use. It means free to support, inspect and modify. Often it is free to use, but that is not implied by the term open source nor by the GPL license.
OH? the GPL license doesn't mean that anything licensed under GPL has to be given away free?
Source code, that's all. Not a fully built and functioning version.
You've lost me - are you saying the published compiled code isn't also covered under GPL?
For those that care - you might notice that I very specifically said "open source GPL software." I didn't say open source software - I knew that Scott would crucify me on that. I was specific to GPL (and other free for use/modify) licenses. This part was/is critical to the discussion.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
I am glad that I have not had your litany of problems with MS support where they tell you to pound sand.
Not my issues, but lots of people have them regularly. I've never found their products to not work and need modification.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
You've lost me - are you saying the published compiled code isn't also covered under GPL?
It's covered. But since the GPL says you don't have to provide anything compiled it's "covered" in the sense that the GPL guarantees that you need not provide it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Hold on. You're saying that because RedHat is open source, they they can't hold you hostage for support? I suppose that's true, but it doesn't keep 1000's of companies from paying them millions in support fees anyway.
By choice, which is fine by me
We were specifically talking about MS - I don't see them holding anyone hostage for huge support fees. In fact, the most recent posting here had a person say they paid $250 for a single ticket to work on a Exchange problem. That seems VERY reasonable to me. One time call, no time limit on length of call, etc. A call like that to NTG would probably been 3-5x that minimum. That's nothing against NTG, but they are an hourly support company. In this cause MS gives near unlimited time to resolve a problem for their flat rate. Granted, the caller had to figure out how to phrase the question to fit inside one of MSs boxes, where NTG would not turned them away at regardless of setup, but in this case, and most others I've ran into, MS has done fine by it's customers in terms of support.
Microsoft does not guarantee that they can fix your problem either though and it's their own OS. So they can just cut it off when they want to essentially.
And if the issue is with their OS, they can simply hide it or refuse the fix. And they do, all the time. No guarantees, it's a case by case decision. Mostly their one price support is for your issues, not theirs, things that are not in their scope anyway.
Right, I've mentioned this before also. How do you know that there wasn't a hard coded password somewhere in the OS and they put out a KB that has a description of "bug fix for Excel"?
Exactly. Closed source doesn't hide things from the bad guys, it hides things from customers.
Again, this is part of the auditing benefit that was already mentioned - you're both beating a dead horse here.
I see no one arguing for close source.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
For those that care - you might notice that I very specifically said "open source GPL software." I didn't say open source software - I knew that Scott would crucify me on that. I was specific to GPL (and other free for use/modify) licenses. This part was/is critical to the discussion.
I'm not sure that this clarified anything. LOL
GPL is open source. There is no point to stating "open source GPL" as that is redundant, unless you mean to include anything that is open source. So basically this only makes sense with the assumption that a comma is missing.
You didn't say open source software, but you implied it. Then you said you were specific to GPL... and others. So not specific.
I think you've made it more confusing rather than less. Are you talking GPL or open source? Those are the two visible options.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@wirestyle22 said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Hold on. You're saying that because RedHat is open source, they they can't hold you hostage for support? I suppose that's true, but it doesn't keep 1000's of companies from paying them millions in support fees anyway.
By choice, which is fine by me
We were specifically talking about MS - I don't see them holding anyone hostage for huge support fees. In fact, the most recent posting here had a person say they paid $250 for a single ticket to work on a Exchange problem. That seems VERY reasonable to me. One time call, no time limit on length of call, etc. A call like that to NTG would probably been 3-5x that minimum. That's nothing against NTG, but they are an hourly support company. In this cause MS gives near unlimited time to resolve a problem for their flat rate. Granted, the caller had to figure out how to phrase the question to fit inside one of MSs boxes, where NTG would not turned them away at regardless of setup, but in this case, and most others I've ran into, MS has done fine by it's customers in terms of support.
Microsoft does not guarantee that they can fix your problem either though and it's their own OS. So they can just cut it off when they want to essentially.
And if the issue is with their OS, they can simply hide it or refuse the fix. And they do, all the time. No guarantees, it's a case by case decision. Mostly their one price support is for your issues, not theirs, things that are not in their scope anyway.
Right, I've mentioned this before also. How do you know that there wasn't a hard coded password somewhere in the OS and they put out a KB that has a description of "bug fix for Excel"?
Exactly. Closed source doesn't hide things from the bad guys, it hides things from customers.
Again, this is part of the auditing benefit that was already mentioned - you're both beating a dead horse here.
I see no one arguing for close source.
But it's the point of the thread. The benefits of open source are protection from the caveats of closed source.
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Other than being free to use, what value does this give the people using it?
Open source does NOT mean free to use. It means free to support, inspect and modify. Often it is free to use, but that is not implied by the term open source nor by the GPL license.
OH? the GPL license doesn't mean that anything licensed under GPL has to be given away free?
Source code, that's all. Not a fully built and functioning version.
And you only have to give away the source if someone gets the binary legitimately. If you use GPL software internally, you need never give even the source away.
This doesn't even make sense. Is it GPL if you use it internally? I suppose you could license it under GPL, but why would you bother?
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@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
yes they do! The SLA grants them that. As you've been saying for years, the SLA allows them to just pay the fine/fee for the SLA and move on. I'm not saying they do abandon their customers, but they could.
Except the big enterprise open source SLAs say that they CAN'T give up.
Well, then that's the contract.
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@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@stacksofplates said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@scottalanmiller said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
@Dashrender said in Benefits of using open source GPL software:
Other than being free to use, what value does this give the people using it?
Open source does NOT mean free to use. It means free to support, inspect and modify. Often it is free to use, but that is not implied by the term open source nor by the GPL license.
OH? the GPL license doesn't mean that anything licensed under GPL has to be given away free?
Source code, that's all. Not a fully built and functioning version.
And you only have to give away the source if someone gets the binary legitimately. If you use GPL software internally, you need never give even the source away.
This doesn't even make sense. Is it GPL if you use it internally? I suppose you could license it under GPL, but why would you bother?
Of course it is GPL if you use it internally. You bother so that you are ready to release. Or, 99.9999% of the time, you do it because you have no choice because you used GPL code.
