Compare ClearOS with Zentyal
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
The only way I could ever work in "CLI only" is by having another computer available at all times so I can look up commands and how exactly to type stuff! Because man pages suck, and nothing is intuitive whatsoever!
I'm not sure what you mean. I find it very intuitive. much moreso that the Windows GUI, for example. Not knocking the Windows GUI, just saying that that is a good one and I find it much harder to find things there than on the Linux CLI.
Well you are a victim of your experience and knowledge then!
How is a blank screen with a blinking cursor "intuitive"? No person on earth could be put in front of that and somehow just know what to do. But at least with a GUI there is something to look at, pieces of text, descriptions, help bubbles, search bars, text labels.
Most of the commands I've ever needed to do something relatively trivial have been just disgusting to look at. I mean, try something like, find the largest 10 files on your computer. Is it "intuitive" to just know how to type something like
du -a / | sort -n -r | head -n 10or whatever. What's intuitive about that? How would anybody know unless they searched Google on some other computer to try and figure it out and know exactly how to pipe the results and what those results will look like and how the next command needs to read the data.
And by no means is that command even complicated!
The other day I ran in to some obscure problem where my system acted like it was out of drive space, yet the drives did not report as full. Turns out after much research it was just that inode usage was filled up. What the heck is an inode? All the years I've been using Linux, the books I've read, the videos I've watched, nobody ever said "hey, you can actually have a full drive because inodes are used up, even when the drive reports as have 20% free space.".I had to delete old kernal images in /usr/src in order to free up inodes.
Nothing intuitive about
dfsaying I have 20% free space, butapt-getsaying it has no room to work because the drive is full. I have to discover this secret hidden inode thing that none of these tools makes mention of!No matter how much I try to study Linux, it takes me 10 minutes before I find myself searching Google tirelessly to figure out some mundane thing or where a config is stored, etc.
Anyway that's neither here nor there. I just think some people like the CLI environment, some people get it, some people "click" with it. But my brain just has a hard time. If my work is 80% Googling and 20% CLI work, but using a GUI makes it 80% work to 20% researching, I'd rather take the GUI. I just get more work done.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
How is a blank screen with a blinking cursor "intuitive"? No person on earth could be put in front of that and somehow just know what to do. But at least with a GUI there is something to look at, pieces of text, descriptions, help bubbles, search bars, text labels.
Because we aren't people without training. We are in IT. We know the command line basics, it's been the same for decades. It's standard and well known. Sure, if you've never used a system before... but that's not our role.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Most of the commands I've ever needed to do something relatively trivial have been just disgusting to look at. I mean, try something like, find the largest 10 files on your computer. Is it "intuitive" to just know how to type something like
du -a / | sort -n -r | head -n 10or whatever. What's intuitive about that?that's totally intuitive to me, and has been since i was a teenager. Once you get past the initial "learning the command line" it's super straight forward. How do you do that on Windows without PowerShell or a third party tool?
For the command line, that's just "list my filesystems, sort numerically, great the top ten." It might look intimidating, but it is very intuitive.
On Windows, I literally dont know how to do it.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
The other day I ran in to some obscure problem where my system acted like it was out of drive space, yet the drives did not report as full. Turns out after much research it was just that inode usage was filled up. What the heck is an inode? All the years I've been using Linux, the books I've read, the videos I've watched, nobody ever said "hey, you can actually have a full drive because inodes are used up, even when the drive reports as have 20% free space.".
That's a weird one. In all my years everyone talks about inodes yet no one ever runs out of them. So weird that you got that flipped around.
But windows has inodes too. You just never learn about them, and people don't tend to run Windows as hard so it doesn't come up as often. How do you list your inodes (ids) in Windows without PowerShell, though?
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Nothing intuitive about
dfsaying I have 20% free space, butapt-getsaying it has no room to work because the drive is full. I have to discover this secret hidden inode thing that none of these tools makes mention of!df will tell you that. It's df -i
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
How is a blank screen with a blinking cursor "intuitive"?
It all comes back down to what you have spent the most time working with. I've spent a lot of time in Windows/Dos command prompts, and the Linux shells too...
The thing about any CLI system (be it a Linux shell or Powershell) is that you can almost always google what you want to do... Yes, that means you have to sort through a bunch of bad google results that may have nothing to do at all with what you are trying to do... but if you do it enough times... You'll know where to find the apache config files... or the DHCP server config files... etc.
Just like in Windows... If I had no idea how to set up a DHCP server or spin up a web server in Windows, what would I do? Google it...
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Anyway that's neither here nor there. I just think some people like the CLI environment, some people get it, some people "click" with it. But my brain just has a hard time. If my work is 80% Googling and 20% CLI work, but using a GUI makes it 80% work to 20% researching, I'd rather take the GUI. I just get more work done.
I would agree with that. The problem is, once you get to any scale, the GUI is a huge problem. I've never seen anyone break the 60 servers per admin mark using GUIs. Even six figure people. They always get mired in the interfaces and the slowness of it all.
On the CLI, you can scale up like crazy. Even without special tools. Add in the special tools and you can be at thousands of machines per person.
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So let's just look at Windows GUI or Webmin or Zentyal... I've not tested this so I'm really asking. If you run out of inodes on any of those systems.... how does the GUI tell you that inodes are exhausted? Since this is a GUI vs CLI question. I have no idea how a GUI would not make things worse here, I've seen no GUI report on inodes, but the CLI does.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
So let's just look at Windows GUI or Webmin or Zentyal... I've not tested this so I'm really asking. If you run out of inodes on any of those systems.... how does the GUI tell you that inodes are exhausted? Since this is a GUI vs CLI question. I have no idea how a GUI would not make things worse here, I've seen no GUI report on inodes, but the CLI does.
Can you do this via Powershell? I honestly have never run into an inode issue before. After a quick, preliminary search, I don't see any powershell commands, or "dos" commands, to list inode count or usage.
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@coliver said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
So let's just look at Windows GUI or Webmin or Zentyal... I've not tested this so I'm really asking. If you run out of inodes on any of those systems.... how does the GUI tell you that inodes are exhausted? Since this is a GUI vs CLI question. I have no idea how a GUI would not make things worse here, I've seen no GUI report on inodes, but the CLI does.
Can you do this via Powershell? I honestly have never run into an inode issue before. After a quick, preliminary search, I don't see any powershell commands, or "dos" commands, to list inode count or usage.
I had looked up the PS command but don't have it on my screen now. There is one, though.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
So let's just look at Windows GUI or Webmin or Zentyal... I've not tested this so I'm really asking. If you run out of inodes on any of those systems.... how does the GUI tell you that inodes are exhausted? Since this is a GUI vs CLI question. I have no idea how a GUI would not make things worse here, I've seen no GUI report on inodes, but the CLI does.
I've never had the error until now. I believe I was just running an
apt-get upgradeand it failed simply saying I was out of space. So a quick check withdfshowed I wasn't. Of course I learned about the inode switch later, but my only point is that there was nothing intuitive about the situation. I had to Google why it was saying out of space when I wasn't. It didn't take long to find the inode angle.I don't know how the GUI would handle it. Since most GUIs would have some interface for doing software updates, I would imagine I would also just get a visual error about being out of space.
The question, is the GUI/software smart enough to take it a step further and tell me why I'm out of space, or just leave it at the error?
My guess is the GUI would not be smart enough to take it further, and simply error about being out of space and leave it at that.It's no different in Windows when you try to install something and you just get some random obscure error and it closes.
I remember back in my computer repair days, software would sometimes throw DLL errors and we'd have to reregister the libraries using CLI commands.A GUI doesn't help with some stuff, but it does with others. Using GUIs for configuration, where you just have to look at checkboxes, drop down lists, toggle switches, text fields. So much easier than running around the file system editing touchy text files. Editing my network in Windows is worlds more intuitive than messing around with interfaces and network files.
Finding large files in Windows is just a matter of clicking the "size" filter in the search box and choosing "gigantic". It won't limit to 10 results though, it will just show everything. Or I use a nifty utility called WinDirStat.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
The question, is the GUI/software smart enough to take it a step further and tell me why I'm out of space, or just leave it at the error?
My guess is the GUI would not be smart enough to take it further, and simply error about being out of space and leave it at that.That's my thought and that would make it SO much worse when the GUI just lacks the info to explain what has happened.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Finding large files in Windows is just a matter of clicking the "size" filter in the search box and choosing "gigantic". It won't limit to 10 results though, it will just show everything. Or I use a nifty utility called WinDirStat.
Oh okay, search does that. Makes sense. I would not have looked there.
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Anyway that's neither here nor there. I just think some people like the CLI environment, some people get it, some people "click" with it. But my brain just has a hard time. If my work is 80% Googling and 20% CLI work, but using a GUI makes it 80% work to 20% researching, I'd rather take the GUI. I just get more work done.
I would agree with that. The problem is, once you get to any scale, the GUI is a huge problem. I've never seen anyone break the 60 servers per admin mark using GUIs. Even six figure people. They always get mired in the interfaces and the slowness of it all.
On the CLI, you can scale up like crazy. Even without special tools. Add in the special tools and you can be at thousands of machines per person.
I'd like to see this in operation. I mean, what are they actually DOING with the servers in the first place? Why would they manage all 60 at once? Wouldn't you have some sort of management utility on them which report to a central interface? Then from the central interface you can hop in and do work on any given system?
What would be an example where managing 60 servers fails but using CLI tools works well? Just some random scenario, so I can wrap my head around it.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
I'd like to see this in operation. I mean, what are they actually DOING with the servers in the first place? Why would they manage all 60 at once? Wouldn't you have some sort of management utility on them which report to a central interface? Then from the central interface you can hop in and do work on any given system?
So I've been this guy, both in the 600 snowflakes world and in the thousands of DevOps style world. You really do do this stuff.
It's not like "hey, I'm going to deploy this to 600 boxes right now". But I might deploy software to 100 boxes at a shot on a Friday night. In the snowflake world, no management utility at all. Just SSH and a Bash shell. It's so easy nothing more is needed. You can loop or use DSH style stuff.
In the DevOps world, there is a "central console" but it is still command line. You use tools like GIT to hold configuration information, you might use a minimal GUI for groups and stuff, but only that.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
What would be an example where managing 60 servers fails but using CLI tools works well? Just some random scenario, so I can wrap my head around it.
You mean where 60 fails from a GUI?
Let's say you need to deploy a package to 60 servers during a 20 minute maintenance window. With windows you could do this with external third party tooling or PowerShell pretty easily. But from the Windows GUI? How do you do it?
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@scottalanmiller said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
What would be an example where managing 60 servers fails but using CLI tools works well? Just some random scenario, so I can wrap my head around it.
You mean where 60 fails from a GUI?
Let's say you need to deploy a package to 60 servers during a 20 minute maintenance window. With windows you could do this with external third party tooling or PowerShell pretty easily. But from the Windows GUI? How do you do it?
You got me, I don't know. I was asking YOU the question. How do admins typically try and manage 60 servers with a GUI? Aren't there any standard tools in the corporate world for this?
In my mind, I wouldn't be just using the Windows GUI. Theoretically I'd have some kind of management interface which is connected to all my systems. As long as I had the authority to install packages, I can see myself just selected which systems to install to, picking the package from some central data store, then clicking the "DO IT" button and sit back and relax while it all happens.
Either that sort of interface simply doesn't exist, or I don't know how else to do it except by connecting to each system one by one.
See in my mind I think a GUI can do ANYTHING a CLI can, since a GUI is simply abstracting the same commands into a visual interface. All the GUIs do at the end of the day is run commands to the underlying APIs, but provide an interface to abstract the ugly stuff away.
When I open Windows Explorer and browse to a folder, under the surface it's just running the same sorts of file system commands I can type myself, it just shows me the results more pretty.
I would think the same is true for managing more than 60 servers. Whatever you can type in a CLI to manage them, the GUI would be doing the same, but showing me the results visually and abstracting some commands into buttons and checkboxes.Hey, I don't know. If the tools I'm imaging don't exist yet, then there is a market for it!
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
You got me, I don't know. I was asking YOU the question. How do admins typically try and manage 60 servers with a GUI? Aren't there any standard tools in the corporate world for this?
Oh. then the answer is no. I've never worked in any environment of any size that used anything but the command line. GUI for a one off server, I totally understand the logic and the reasoning. But at scale, GUIs are basically out of the question. Always have been. Never seen anyone even think to ask for one.
I've worked in environments of all sizes and all kinds of industries. One off Windows machines used to be all GUIs, even that is slowly changing. But UNIX systems of any sort, 100% CLI. I've heard of people with just one or two servers trying to use GUIs. But I've never heard of a shop with more than a few and have never encountered first had a shop with even only one, that used a GUI.
I can't imagine how using a GUI would work, realistically. I mean we use them for log reading (ELK) and monitoring (Zabbix) but those are decoupled systems, not the boxes themselves.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
In my mind, I wouldn't be just using the Windows GUI. Theoretically I'd have some kind of management interface which is connected to all my systems. As long as I had the authority to install packages, I can see myself just selected which systems to install to, picking the package from some central data store, then clicking the "DO IT" button and sit back and relax while it all happens.
These exist for package deployments, especially for desktops. but once you are managing the boxes, you pretty much need fast logins. Even Windows I find remoting into a GUI to be painfully slow. i can often do a task in Linux before you can get the RDP connection made for Windows.
And I'm only half kidding.
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@guyinpv said in Compare ClearOS with Zentyal:
Finding large files in Windows is just a matter of clicking the "size" filter in the search box and choosing "gigantic". It won't limit to 10 results though, it will just show everything. Or I use a nifty utility called WinDirStat.
That can be done with
ls -lSh. Lists all the files in that directory, sorted descending by human readable size.How do you remove all of the files in a directory with a certain extension in a GUI?
With a Linux CLI it's
find . -type f -exec rm -f {} \;I can type that 100 times faster than I can ctrl select each file in a GUI and hit delete.
