Common Core haters
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@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
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@wirestyle22 said:
@Jason said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@travisdh1 said:
@JaredBusch Just out of curiosity, have you every actually looked at the budgets for your local schools? It was eye opening for me. Something just isn't right if you can't give a good education for 1/3 of what our local schools are funded at.
It's not the budget, it is what is paid to the teaching staff that is the issue.
We pay teachers? Could've fooled me from the budgets I looked at, grr!
Remember, no one is truly mandating the public school to provide education. They are a combination of babysitting and social control.
If you complain about your pay, the option is to find some other work.. You don't want to? well that just shows your stupidity.
You think people that dedicate 5-6 years of their time getting a masters degree, getting paid scraps should just find other work? That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country. A goal I hope everyone in our field would support considering we are in a 100% intellectual field.
Yes, but just look around those boards.. .you can see that many believe that college education is a complete waste of time.
My wife is a teacher, she loves her job - she doesn't complain about her pay, never has. She knew that she would never be in a high salary job.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
who didn't? Post grad programs? I guess my point is null because I'm not from NY, eh?
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yeah... we didn't accept Ivy League credits either
who didn't? Post grad programs? I guess my point is null because I'm not from NY, eh?
GMI... they didn't accept transfer credits from any Ivy League. They didn't consider the coursework rigorous enough. The only school that they accepted credits from is RIT and they took them at half value.
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Which legitimately, Cornell is an IL school and quite the academic embarrassment, not just to the IL but to the country. Globally famous for people just buying degrees there. It's the worlds "buy a degree" school.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
Private schools prove that isn't true!
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@RojoLoco said:
who didn't? Post grad programs?
They didn't have grad programs. Undergrad only. Had to go on elsewhere for grad work. They only had two programs, very focused.
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@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller Our graduates attended colleges all over the country, all of which accepted AP class credits (yup, even real Ivy league schools).
Yes, AP are accepted almost everywhere. I'm just saying that have to be the same AP class taught everywhere. But in some regions, like California, they are just like normal classes and in other regions, like Texas, they are brutal because the kids going into them are used to completely different levels of education. And colleges in different areas, for some they barely cover the material and at others they go past graduate work.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
Are you telling me that Texas schools used to teach even remotely as much as NY or California schools? We know that most of the south's schools, including colleges, do a fraction of the education that northeastern schools do. It's not an attitude, it's a real academic disparity.
I said nothing disparaging about you or southerners and made no claims about the north other than the Ivy League is a load of crap and not as well respected even in the north as people like to think, that the north has much more difficult academic programs. This has been shown time and again and I've dealt with education in many regions and have seen it first hand.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
You can only base it on results if you can remove those students who won't want to partake so you're not screwing the person subject to those results.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller and you're from NY. New Yorkers' attitude of "everyone not from NY is a shit flinging monkey" is nothing new, I've heard that my whole life from literally everyone I've ever met from NY, upstate or otherwise. Really progressive.
Aren't you doing the same thing trying to say that the AP classes are very hard and our schools in the north must be weird if we don't accept them universally? You are making the same claims that our schools can't be as rigorous as they are (or were.) NY high schools are terrible now, the last ten years have destroyed them. They are a national embarrassment now. SUNY is still awesome, but the high school system is ruined. I would never send my kids to it, it's ridiculous.
SUNY remains probably the best collegiate education in the nation for value. Low cost, high standards, none of the BS.
According to a study I saw yesterday, there is no university remaining in the US that is a selective as several were twenty years ago. The academic world has changed dramatically. They are now shocked that some colleges accept only 5%. But several used to be below that twenty years ago.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
That is a ton of dedication to try to further the education in our country.
the problem is, most people do that and it is "just taking the easy way out." An education degree is a super easy one (as a general thing.) Other fields can get a degree and tack on "education" as an afterthought. Classes for teachers are different than they are for most other fields.
I had several roommates who were teaches years ago. They were struggling with their master's homework. Some of us IT folks looked at it and were confused because it was material that we non-college students already knew because it was common elementary material (for English.) It took a long time to figure out that what they were struggling with at a top north east teaching school in the grad program wasn't "how to teach" elementary English, they were actually struggling with elementary English themselves!! What a top university expected them to learn in grad school, any other program would have expected them to know coming out of high school (or middle school or lower.)
Getting a Master in Education is often a very easy way to go. It doesn't mean that people are not educated or aren't caring, but the average teacher goes to college to party and takes the easy route in life. It's the one job that they've witnessed as a kid, requires no expanding of their horizons, is the easiest college programs to get into, is a party college experience, requires none of the rigour of more academic programs, and lets them avoid the work world for a year longer than most programs. It's the path of least resistance to a lot of people.
So using those factors alone (instead of individual skill, dedication, effort, etc.) as reasons why teachers should make any given wage doesn't make sense.
It's great that your teacher is doing it to teach kids. So were my roommates, they love teaching middle school English and are really passionate about it. But by and large, the average teacher is just looking for a union job with the least effort to get into that they can.
We solve that problem by making the jobs competitive. If we pay the bottom of the barrel we're going to get the bottom of the barrel.
It's, unfortunately, a catch 22. We don't have teachers worth even what they make today. Do we pay the existing unqualified teachers more? Will that encourage the field to improve? We'd have to pay a LOT more.
If the jobs are based on results, maybe we can make it work. But what do we do with all of the teachers that we make useless?
You can only base it on results if you can remove those students who won't want to partake so you're not screwing the person subject to those results.
Yup, that is a huge issue with the system. The students don't get to pick the teacher and the teacher doesn't get to pick the students. I totally understand why results based teaching is a problem. You have to come up with a way to equally evaluate a teacher when every possible thing is variable - there is no means of creating a baseline for comparison. No two teachers have the same kids, at the same age, for the same material.
Over a career you might be able to evaluate the averages of a few teachers who taught closely, but that's long after the value is gone.
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@JaredBusch said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Numbers lines teach people visibly how math works. That is why I cannot understand how so many people shit on it.
Once you have memorized basic math, you do not need a number line to do math functions, this is true, and why some cal it a waste of time. But people who just learn by memorization never actually learn how/why math works. They just learn that 2+2=4 because they were told so.
Huh - I don't think I learned this number line method your talking about - it kinda of came instinctually over time after I learned how numbers worked. I guess it just seems odd that we have to teach them this, when I basically taught it to myself. or even if I didn't teach it to myself, I learned it at such a young age that it was natural. But to be learning it beyond the third grade? no way - and using it beyond the third grade, again, nah.. use real operations - at least that's my take on it.
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@scottalanmiller All I can speak for is the time I was in HS, late 80s early 90s. ALL schools have gone to shit in the last 25 years. AP classes where I went to school were at least 3 steps beyond our curriculum, which put them in a different galaxy from GA public schools. I have no idea what NY schools have ever been like, all I know is the NY attitude that I've seen firsthand my whole life.
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@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@wirestyle22 said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@coliver said:
@Jason said:
Also teachers are usually underqualified to teach anyway.
No argument here... but that may be because they are paid scraps.
One supports the other. We don't want highly skilled teachers, so we don't pay for them, so we don't get them.
We do want highly skilled teachers we just apparently don't want to pay for them.
I don't agree. If we wanted that, we'd pay that. We can say that we want it all that we want but that's just bluster. Actions speak louder than words. I don't know any local community that, as a community, cares about the education of the community.
Out of all the depressing posts this one makes me the most sad. I don't want to get into a political debate and I don't mean what I'm about to say in a political way but we (the US) are making ourselves obsolete. It's really sad.
Really? How is this different than most of US History? Those who could afford to go to school 100 years ago went and were educated well, today, it's just not a real requirement.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@coliver said:
@JaredBusch said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
The issue with the Common Core is not the Common Core itself. That's actually just a standard of what kids should know at different levels. It's actually not half bad. A bit slack, but anything in public education is.
People associate sometimes whacky and nonsensical teaching methods and standardized testing with Common Core. Those are actually the things that people hate or are having issues with.
That and things like number lines... I've seen a few examples and those simply don't make sense to me at all... and I took Math all the way up to Calculus and we never touched on that -- not in the long-winded roundabout way that I've seen examples work.
I was taught number lines. There is nothing convoluted about them. It is all math. Math is always 100% logical.
My daughters are taught number lines in their Japanese courses that have nothing to do with the US education system.
I was going to say. We were taught this in elementary school. I always thought it was a waste of time and could do it in my head.
Numbers lines teach people visibly how math works. That is why I cannot understand how so many people shit on it.
Once you have memorized basic math, you do not need a number line to do math functions, this is true, and why some cal it a waste of time. But people who just learn by memorization never actually learn how/why math works. They just learn that 2+2=4 because they were told so.
Huh - I don't think I learned this number line method your talking about - it kinda of came instinctually over time after I learned how numbers worked. I guess it just seems odd that we have to teach them this, when I basically taught it to myself. or even if I didn't teach it to myself, I learned it at such a young age that it was natural. But to be learning it beyond the third grade? no way - and using it beyond the third grade, again, nah.. use real operations - at least that's my take on it.
Right, that's my problem. I just understood how they worked based on the normal teaching methods (of the time.) So I've never seen what gap the number line is supposed to be bridging.
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@RojoLoco said:
@scottalanmiller All I can speak for is the time I was in HS, late 80s early 90s. ALL schools have gone to shit in the last 25 years. AP classes where I went to school were at least 3 steps beyond our curriculum, which put them in a different galaxy from GA public schools. I have no idea what NY schools have ever been like, all I know is the NY attitude that I've seen firsthand my whole life.
And all I said was that the AP classes were not much different from our normal curriculum and the college that I was accepted at already told me that it wouldn't accept them (or any coursework from the NY colleges either) so not to bother doing them.
You feel like I'm giving you attitude, but I think that you are reading into it. I was explaining why the AP appears very hard some places and not hard in others and why most schools accept it but some do not.
I did one AP class in high school and it was "just another class." We didn't think of it as an AP class, it was just senior math. It did not count for me in college and I had to do it again.
