What Are You Doing Right Now
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
Oh sure, they are HP salespeople, that's part of the process. We are an HP partner, for example. We can get HP-paid sales people anytime that we need. It's a sales position called pre-sales engineering. It's one of the most important sales roles and often the highest paid one. I'm not suggesting that they were CDW sales people, just that they were sales people.
Learn something new every day. What mattered to us is that they were able to answer our questions on the spot with very little of that "We'll get back to you" type stuff. (This was closer to us pulling the trigger and getting the equipment, mind you).
Don't take any of this as me saying that sales people and pre-sales engineers are bad or unneeded. They are VERY important. Just not important at the stage where you are looking for products, direction, strategy, etc. You need to have nearly all of the buying decided on before they get looped in.
Then, near the finalization of a selection, you need these folks to verify configurations, check options, verify stock and delivery times, and things like that. I work with pre-sales engineering people all of the time - but only after I know the product, know why I want to use it, know how it fits into a strategy, etc. The PSE guys are great for making sure that I've not missed something, letting me know about upcoming changes, etc. I work with PSEs all the time. It's a very important role, but it is still sales, just technical sales.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
The Experts being @NTG, right?
Our problem was that we didn't like any of the alternatives at the time.
you didn't like any that you were aware of. That's not to imply that you didn't find them all, but there's always the possibility.
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@Dashrender said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
Yes. After the Sales rep has given you topics to research, and maybe a couple of experts to talk to about what you are trying to accomplish
That's not a good process. Sales Reps will steer you to bad decisions so that you ask the wrong questions. I deal with this every day. Sales people convince IT people that they need a SAN, for example, to the point where they refuse to talk any more about their business needs and demand a SAN - even when doing something free wouldn't just be cheaper but actually results in a better technical solution! The degree to which salespeople manipulate this process is incredible and we see it every day. You can go to the experts directly without the sales people in the middle for better results.
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
The Experts being @NTG, right?
Our problem was that we didn't like any of the alternatives at the time.
you didn't like any that you were aware of. That's not to imply that you didn't find them all, but there's always the possibility.
No, I can assure you we did not find them all, lol.
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@dafyre said:
Sales Rep recommends a product. Google for "Alternative to product" ?
That's where the problem lies. Take a SAN as an example. Go try to Google for an alternative product to a Dell MD or a HP MSA. You might learn about Synology, Drobo, EMC, etc. But all things that you can go back and buy from the sales guy. He did his job. He planted the seed in such a way that it guides you to convince yourself to spend money because of the ecosystem that exists around sales. It's very good manipulation.
How often would you get told that you see an MSA 2000 and learn that SAN is the wrong tool for the job and look at alternative approaches? Essentially never. Google doesn't provide that kind of feedback. The sales people know this and leverage it heavily.
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@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Generally, I'd agree. However, the guys that we talked with from HP appeared to be HP employees(they had @HP email addresses and business cards, etc). Easily fakeable, but you get my gist. Their goal was to help CDWG make the sale, and help us design the infrastructure after we figured out which products we wanted that met our business goals.
Oh sure, they are HP salespeople, that's part of the process. We are an HP partner, for example. We can get HP-paid sales people anytime that we need. It's a sales position called pre-sales engineering. It's one of the most important sales roles and often the highest paid one. I'm not suggesting that they were CDW sales people, just that they were sales people.
Learn something new every day. What mattered to us is that they were able to answer our questions on the spot with very little of that "We'll get back to you" type stuff. (This was closer to us pulling the trigger and getting the equipment, mind you).
Don't take any of this as me saying that sales people and pre-sales engineers are bad or unneeded. They are VERY important. Just not important at the stage where you are looking for products, direction, strategy, etc. You need to have nearly all of the buying decided on before they get looped in.
Then, near the finalization of a selection, you need these folks to verify configurations, check options, verify stock and delivery times, and things like that. I work with pre-sales engineering people all of the time - but only after I know the product, know why I want to use it, know how it fits into a strategy, etc. The PSE guys are great for making sure that I've not missed something, letting me know about upcoming changes, etc. I work with PSEs all the time. It's a very important role, but it is still sales, just technical sales.
As you so often tout SMB IT guys tend to go into things with a product in mind. One of our team members was very good at keeping us focused on the end-goal and business mandate of what we wanted to accomplish.
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When I was consulting years ago, I had a client that would constantly ask me for quotes on things. While I didn't sell much hardware I would provide the quotes for free but he would never buy from me. After a while I became frustrated as he was basically just using me as a second price source to justify a price he had already found elsewhere. In the end I stopped doing any real work in quoting, and would just toss webbased MSRPs at him since it didn't matter anyhow.
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@dafyre said:
The Experts being @NTG, right?
That's what we do. That's what @Bundy-Associates does. That's what Synchronet does. There are lots of good options with staff that I would trust. It's a category of IT work that is very important, especially in the SMB.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
Right. If I say I need an "HP Procurve 2650" that is what I want you to quote me. You don't need to include any options for Brocade, Juniper, Extreme, or any of the others. Give me a quote for a Procurve 2650. (We had this problem with a sales rep from another business, lol).
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@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
Huh - I wonder if that's why Softmart never tries to sell me anything either - since Danielle sent me their way.
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@Dashrender said:
When I was consulting years ago, I had a client that would constantly ask me for quotes on things. While I didn't sell much hardware I would provide the quotes for free but he would never buy from me. After a while I became frustrated as he was basically just using me as a second price source to justify a price he had already found elsewhere. In the end I stopped doing any real work in quoting, and would just toss webbased MSRPs at him since it didn't matter anyhow.
Which, in turn, causes the other quotes that he gets to look better causing him to gradually overspend more and more.
I mentioned this as a trend that would happen with Spiceworks first released they automatic RFQ system. No good vendor would even accept something generated by that system after a few months. It was basically a quote spamming system. If you saw a quote come from that, you knew it wasn't a serious customer.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
Huh - I wonder if that's why Softmart never tries to sell me anything either - since Danielle sent me their way.
That would be why. You are linked to our account. Do you work with Shannon?
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@dafyre said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
Right. If I say I need an "HP Procurve 2650" that is what I want you to quote me. You don't need to include any options for Brocade, Juniper, Extreme, or any of the others. Give me a quote for a Procurve 2650. (We had this problem with a sales rep from another business, lol).
That we wouldn't mind at all. Sometimes they know about prices that we do not. They don't know why we chose the 2650 so if they, on their own, spend some time grabbing prices of alternatives while they are not busy for us to consider, that's no problem at all. We might have chosen the 2650 at random or not known of the other product. But in that situation, we already know that we want a switch with certain capabilities or we would not have asked for the quote. So no "IT decisions" being handed to the vendor. They are just offering alternatives within the set need from what they can tell. If we want to experiment with another brand, we could consider it but the consideration would be on our end. If we wanted to talk to a PSE about the new product, they would line that up.
That's where I see sales and PSE roles as valuable. But we would never let Softmart say "you know what you need? A new switch!"
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
When I was consulting years ago, I had a client that would constantly ask me for quotes on things. While I didn't sell much hardware I would provide the quotes for free but he would never buy from me. After a while I became frustrated as he was basically just using me as a second price source to justify a price he had already found elsewhere. In the end I stopped doing any real work in quoting, and would just toss webbased MSRPs at him since it didn't matter anyhow.
Which, in turn, causes the other quotes that he gets to look better causing him to gradually overspend more and more.
I mentioned this as a trend that would happen with Spiceworks first released they automatic RFQ system. No good vendor would even accept something generated by that system after a few months. It was basically a quote spamming system. If you saw a quote come from that, you knew it wasn't a serious customer.
I mostly do understand what you are saying - but at the same time, is it not our responsibility to shop around for the best price?
Let me ask it this way - Let's assume your vendor of choice is Best Buy (just go with me) when you go shopping for TV's - after you've done your research and decided which one you want, assuming BB has it, do you just buy it from them? or do you shop around?
Why does a business relationship with a vendor at CDW, SoftMart, etc work any differently?
I know that HP and others break the shop around aspect with the project registered lock-in thing (You call CDW tell them you want XZY HP stuff, CDW registers this desired purchase with HP, HP gives CDW an even better discount on this equipment. Now you call SoftMart, and SoftMart tries to do the same, but HP rejects them because someone else has already registered your desired purchase, and now SoftMart doesn't get the better pricing).
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@dafyre said:
CDWG was the only one that came back and asked for us to meet with their product engineers. We spoke with HP guys, and Dell guys, and I think EMC guys at the initial onset. There were product engineers, not sales reps. We spoke to them at length, both with and without the sales reps present on the calls.
This is where they mislead you with titles. If you were not paying them, they were sales people. Their income came purely through selling things to you. Their only financial incentives were to sell you something and the more that they could sell, the more they get paid. No matter what title someone has, if their job is to sell you things, they are a salesman.
Yeah, This is where I was mislead - nearly anyone you might speak to at CDW is a sales person, regardless of title. As previously stated, you will get different answers to the same question based upon whatever vendor is giving them a great 'special' at the moment.
Combine that with a frequently changing sales staff - I lost all interest in dealing with them. It means I have to do my job - find the solutions to my problems.. then ask for a price only from them.
We got lucky and had a couple of good sales reps after that bad one moved on. And our reps didn't change as fast as they do at Dell, lol.
We have great sales reps at Softmart. We've used the same one for years and only one before that one. And the original is still around, she is just the boss of our current one. We work hard to maintain a good relationship. They never try to sell us things, they only work within guidelines we set. And they know that they always get our business. It's a great relationship.
Huh - I wonder if that's why Softmart never tries to sell me anything either - since Danielle sent me their way.
That would be why. You are linked to our account. Do you work with Shannon?
Yep.
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@Dashrender said:
I mostly do understand what you are saying - but at the same time, is it not our responsibility to shop around for the best price?
I don't know, are you paid to be in IT or to be a shopper? Purchasing is a different job role. And one that IT people are not good at. But do you see the gear you buy as a commodity or as something that needs support? Most businesses need support and care from their VARs.
So....
If you only buy from places like Amazon and NewEgg, then yes, someone (not IT) should be shopping around for low prices.
If you buy from VARs (including CDW, Softmart, or resellers) then pretty much no, if you are shopping around you are undermining the relationship of the VAR and aren't thinking of this properly.
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@Dashrender said:
Let me ask it this way - Let's assume your vendor of choice is Best Buy (just go with me) when you go shopping for TV's - after you've done your research and decided which one you want, assuming BB has it, do you just buy it from them? or do you shop around?
BB is like Amazon. If BB was my seller, I'd shop around BECAUSE they are not a VAR. That's the key here.
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Important terminology that is being used too loosely, I think...
Vendor - the original vendor that makes a product. They might or might not sell directly. This would be Cisco, MS, Apple, HPE, Dell, etc.
Reseller - people who sell stuff. Like Amazon, Best Buy, NewEgg
VAR - a reseller that combines value with the services. Normally technical but also logistical. These are the CDWs, Softmarts and to some degree NTGs.
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@Dashrender said:
Why does a business relationship with a vendor at CDW, SoftMart, etc work any differently?
Because..... relationship.
Softmart is our partner. They know our needs, we know their needs. We work together. We are a team. They provide sales support, we do the technical stuff. They aren't a store, they are a VAR with lots of resources of all types. They have licensing people, vendor reps, all kinds of things.
