@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

I hope that they pay really well, because they are mocking you with the money to just throw away for no reason.

Lol, its ok.

Remember, this is the place where everything is running on blades too! Lol, and not backed up at all.

So, I just need something for 15k or less that will get me to 2020.

From previous use I know that the Veeam Agent Free edition can be installed on a VM, pointed to a NAS/SMB share with credentials over a network, set to email upon failure, success or error, and set with a schedule. Expensive, sure. But it gets me backed up until 2020.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

How are you determining the amount of storage that will be needed?

No idea, out of my remit here.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

How are you determining the amount of storage that will be needed?

I've been given the target by another team, so that is out of my hands. The rest of the company use B&R, but they do not plan on introducing this to UK side until 2019 (sometime in 2020). So we have been told to use up to 15k to get ourselves backed up until then using the Veeam Agent Free Edition, then in 2020 we will be incorporated. Out of my hands, but is what it is.

Makes sense with what you say about the backup server and the storage behind that server/attached to the backup server. But thats not where we are here until 2020.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

This makes sense. I cannot currently use this product though if it only allows two VMs.

Sounds like Veeam isn't a viable option for you, it doesn't allow for your budgetary needs.

Currently. We will be using Veeam next year. But this year we have to use up to the 15k to get backups in place until then, and the Free Agent/Windows edition works well from where I have seen it used before.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

Does the version you put here allow scheduling with the free version, and unlimited VMs?

No, they are unrelated products. You get two VMs only. But it is the product that people refer to as "Veeam", and the key features that people claim to be why they choose Veeam are only in that version.

I like the product that you are choosing just fine, just pointing out that when you say "Veeam", to 99% of people it means a very different product than the one you are using. Veeam has become an industry standard meaning "agentless", even though they make agent based products like the Agent for Windows.

This makes sense. I cannot currently use this product though if it only allows two VMs.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

Veeam Agent for Microsoft Windows re-builds the full backup file to include in it data of the
incremental backup file that follows the full backup file.

that's the incremental. you don't take an incremental with tape.

Does the version you posted support tape, and does that allow unlimited VMs and scheduling?

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

At the end of the retention period, it injects the oldest increment in to the original full backup... is that not possible with tape?

Definitely not possible with tape. But that's just one of the many assumptions that need to be changed. Someone did your backup planning based on false assumptions. You need to back up and decide on goals and make all decisions based on those goals.

However, what you describe isn't exactly how Veeam works. Also, Veeam is a company, not a product, there are multiple free products from them. And they all work a bit differently.

https://www.veeam.com/windows-endpoint-server-backup-free.html

That one.

Good thing that I asked, this is a case where me being pedantic really did result in the answer no one would expect. "The free version of Veeam" means this one to almost all people: https://www.veeam.com/virtual-machine-backup-solution-free.html

Does the version you put here allow scheduling with the free version, and unlimited VMs?

@scottalanmiller said

However, what you describe isn't exactly how Veeam works. Also, Veeam is a company, not a product, there are multiple free products from them. And they all work a bit differently.

https://www.veeam.com/veeam_agent_windows_3_0_user_guide_pg.pdf

"Veeam Agent for Microsoft Windows re-builds the full backup file to include in it data of the
incremental backup file that follows the full backup file. To do this, Veeam Agent for Microsoft
Windows injects into the full backup file data blocks from the earliest incremental backup file
in the chain. This way, a full backup ‘moves’ forward in the backup chain"

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

At the end of the retention period, it injects the oldest increment in to the original full backup... is that not possible with tape?

Definitely not possible with tape. But that's just one of the many assumptions that need to be changed. Someone did your backup planning based on false assumptions. You need to back up and decide on goals and make all decisions based on those goals.

However, what you describe isn't exactly how Veeam works. Also, Veeam is a company, not a product, there are multiple free products from them. And they all work a bit differently.

https://www.veeam.com/windows-endpoint-server-backup-free.html

That one.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

How does this handle modified data?

It doesn't, but you don't change data in backups, so that's not normally a big deal.

We are initially going to have to use Veeam Free edition. At the end of the retention period, it injects the oldest increment in to the original full backup... is that not possible with tape?

Back from shopping. Read the posts. Ok, so... the tape idea sounds like this could meet my needs.

I've not used tape, how does this present its self to the servers as storage? Do you have to swap tapes manually, or are they all added in to an enclosure and available? Are they available over a network, or as USB device? What sort of throughput do you get for writing data? How does this handle modified data?

Popping to the shops, will read when back

@DustinB3403 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

I think the way this conversation actually started was like this:

Boss says: We need to setup some sort of backup solutions
Jimmy says: I can do it for X
Boss says: WOW that's amazing, budget signed.
Jimmy says: Well shit now I'm stuck and I need a vendor to give me stuff for free. .

Not quite. Im given budget. So, you have x to do y.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

Not saying its a good idea by any means, but:
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/35658-qnap-tvs-2472xu-rp-i5-8g/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImLiIoYXn4QIVy73tCh0pKQYDEAQYASABEgJ7NPD_BwE
24 bay NAS.

24 bay isn't possible, it's too small for your requirement and, like the budget, the requirement is the requirement. So that rules out the QNAP.

24 bay, 14 tb disks, raid 10 = 168 Tb, no? Unless im doing something wrong...

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

I know I could get a QNAP at this cost with the right storage, in RAID 10.

You sure? How?

Not saying its a good idea by any means, but:

https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/35658-qnap-tvs-2472xu-rp-i5-8g/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImLiIoYXn4QIVy73tCh0pKQYDEAQYASABEgJ7NPD_BwE

24 bay NAS.

Then, 24: https://www.ebuyer.com/858387-seagate-ironwolf-14tb-nas-hard-drive-3-5-sata-iii-6gb-s-7200rpm-256mb-st14000vn0008?mkwid=s_dc&pcrid=51482414339&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8bGe14Tn4QIVLrvtCh2BsQOTEAQYASABEgKOVfD_BwE

In Raid 10, that is 168 TB, could make do with that... would Raid 60 ever be an option here?

Total: £13,925.23p, unless I added it incorrectly.

Probably a bad idea, but its the budget I have available...

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

170TB Usable from different drives using some aggressive pricing... (prices in USD)

Drive Type	Drives Needed in R10	Cost Per Drive	Resulting Cost
15TB	24	NA	?
14TB	26	$598	$15548
12TB	30	$471	$14130
10TB	34	$395	$13430
8TB	44	$332	$14608

I can get 14TB drive her in UK for £432.65, 26 of them = £11,248.90. So, I need to fix a box to use them for £3,750 or less...

@DustinB3403 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

Still, the budget is the budget. What else would you suggest? I know I could get a QNAP at this cost with the right storage, in RAID 10. May not bee a good idea, and I dont like QNAP, but it fits the budget...

The suggestion is that you either reduce what you need for storage, or expect that warranty would be parts only within the MFR stock terms.

Parts only is fine. I was just curious if it 'came with anything else'...

I'll get that company to put a quote together, but worst case a shitty QNAP is still an option.

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

If you need hardware protection, by far your cheapest option is going to be maintaining your own spare parts. Expensive, but a fraction of the cost of a warranty. And way faster parts replacement (minutes, not hours or days.) And for the system itself, an MSP will lower your overall cost and get you support. Without that, you are stuck maintaining it with in house expertise and resources. Which if you have them, great. But if not... nothing is more expensive that the cost of attempting to run systems you can't maintain.

Still, the budget is the budget. What else would you suggest? I know I could get a QNAP at this cost with the right storage, in RAID 10. May not bee a good idea, and I dont like QNAP, but it fits the budget...

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@DustinB3403 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@scottalanmiller said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@DustinB3403 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

@Jimmy9008 said in Raid10, must use or another Raid limits?:

SC847E16-R1K28LPB

CPU, RAM, Power supplies, motherboard?

I assumed that is already within the device?

Chassis implies none of those things. If you look, the chassis lists the kinds of motherboards it supports. It doesn't have a mobo, let alone CPU, RAM, etc.

https://www.supermicro.com/products/chassis/4U/847/SC847E16-R1K28LPB

SuperMicro you always buy through a dealer. Looking at SM's website is just about useless. Talk to PCM UK and have them assemble something for you, trying to do it yourself will be a nightmare and that's never how SM expects it to work.

Would that PCM work also include OS setup/setting up the file system? So we just rack it in the office and turn it on...

It's very plausible you could have the dealer do this for you, but I'd reload it myself.

What sort of hardware support do we get? I assume just manufacturer warranty?

What else is there? I mean you can talk to an MSP and pay some huge money for them to warranty your work or whatever. But.... all you are doing is paying them to be a financial vehicle which will cost you a lot of money.

What I mean by this is, for example, Dell can supply 4h mission critical hardware/drive replacement (or so) if something were to fail.