Negotiated Drive Speed
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@JaredBusch said:
These are the tools that Windows administrators deal with daily though. so it is not like it is hard or unusual for them to use.
I think that you slipped into SAM world there. Those are the tools that Windows Admins should use every day. This is where I'd say that not using these tools falls below an acceptable line and you'd point out that that is my fantasy world and that in the real world SMB admins aren't familiar with RSAT and similar tools.
My experience is that good Windows Admins normally use them if they have servers of any scale, but in the SMB rarely do and much of the SMB and even into Wall St. firms often are totally unaware of the RSAT. One of the largest companies in the world that I was at recently when I talked to their Windows team, every one of which was making way over six figures, not a single one even knew that the RSAT or remote tools of any sort existed from MS!
While I agree with the theory, in practice, not as many Windows admins know or use these tools as you might think.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
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@JaredBusch said:
XenServer will most certainly get to this point, but it is not there yet. It takes too much other insert thing to manage at this point.
We've been on it for over a decade and I don't know what things those are. What things are making Xen less set and forget than Hyper-V or VMware?
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@JaredBusch said:
These are the tools that Windows administrators deal with daily though. so it is not like it is hard or unusual for them to use. that is the point. You whine about Hyper-V simply because of this imaginary single pane of glass thing that you think is required.
Agreed - I am jaded because I spent 4+ years managing a single ESXi free server from one app. Even though, sure I know all the tools needed to mange Hyper-V, but this feels like a HUGE step backwards. MS really needs to catch up and put all the tools together.. even if it's just an MMC with all of the components together.
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@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Very true, it was pretty clunky.
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@scottalanmiller said:
While I agree with the theory, in practice, not as many Windows admins know or use these tools as you might think.
Sadly this is true.
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@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
OK that's still 4 years ago. and how many SMBs have more than one ESXi host? I'm guessing all of your clients?
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
XenServer will most certainly get to this point, but it is not there yet. It takes too much other insert thing to manage at this point.
We've been on it for over a decade and I don't know what things those are. What things are making Xen less set and forget than Hyper-V or VMware?
I don't know about less set and forget.. what GUI tools exist to manage Xen? XenCenter is OK.. but far from great. I'm really hoping XO is a lot better.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Very true, it was pretty clunky.
gain for multi servers maybe it was clunky.. but for one host - it was a breeze.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
OK that's still 4 years ago. and how many SMBs have more than one ESXi host? I'm guessing all of your clients?
All of the ones that had a virtualized infrastructure had 2 hosts yes.
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@JaredBusch said:
XenServer will most certainly get to this point, but it is not there yet. It takes too much other insert thing to manage at this point.
We've been on it for over a decade and I don't know what things those are. What things are making Xen less set and forget than Hyper-V or VMware?
I don't know about less set and forget.. what GUI tools exist to manage Xen? XenCenter is OK.. but far from great. I'm really hoping XO is a lot better.
Setting up a new XS host and trying XO is on my short list ofthings to do.
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@scottalanmiller said:
While I agree with the theory, in practice, not as many Windows admins know or use these tools as you might think.
Most of the people I have been around have known about and used RSAT. So that leads me to the other end of the spectrum. That most SMB use it.
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@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
OK that's still 4 years ago. and how many SMBs have more than one ESXi host? I'm guessing all of your clients?
Well, it's unfair because ESXi causes people to change their hosts. It's not how many do, it's how many would.
If we use ESXi, we decom all our old gear and toss it. Too expensive to keep. If we use HyperV or XenServer, we put that only older gear and keep it around for lower end workloads, lab or test spots or failover for cheap under a single pane of glass.
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@JaredBusch said:
@scottalanmiller said:
While I agree with the theory, in practice, not as many Windows admins know or use these tools as you might think.
Most of the people I have been around have known about and used RSAT. So that leads me to the other end of the spectrum. That most SMB use it.
Most I've been around do to, but it is the nature of people we are around, I think. Go onto places like SW and mention it and while there are many users, even more are like "what's that?"
All the UNIX people that I know use it when working on Windows, which is most of the Windows people that I deal with. but most of the pure SMB people that I know, don't use any tools at all.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
OK that's still 4 years ago. and how many SMBs have more than one ESXi host? I'm guessing all of your clients?
Well, it's unfair because ESXi causes people to change their hosts. It's not how many do, it's how many would.
If we use ESXi, we decom all our old gear and toss it. Too expensive to keep. If we use HyperV or XenServer, we put that only older gear and keep it around for lower end workloads, lab or test spots or failover for cheap under a single pane of glass.
What?
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@Dashrender said:
@scottalanmiller said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
@Dashrender said:
@JaredBusch said:
VMWare did not have this until recently. VMWare was managed via the desktop client and was not anywhere close to a single pane.
Eh? One VM host in a single pane/single app is how I managed my ESXi server for 4+ years. When I finally got my second host, I upgraded to ESXi essentials from free version and installed vCenter and now had a single pane for both servers.
The vCenter web interface was not there in a decent form until 5.5 I believe.
OK that's still 4 years ago. and how many SMBs have more than one ESXi host? I'm guessing all of your clients?
Well, it's unfair because ESXi causes people to change their hosts. It's not how many do, it's how many would.
If we use ESXi, we decom all our old gear and toss it. Too expensive to keep. If we use HyperV or XenServer, we put that only older gear and keep it around for lower end workloads, lab or test spots or failover for cheap under a single pane of glass.
What?
It's causality. You can't look at people who use ESXi to determine if it makes sense for them, because their environment is already altered by the fact that they use ESXi or they are filtered by the fact that they found it useful.
Ask the general population how many are vegetarian, it's like 5%. Now survey people who eat at Bob's BBQ Shack what percentage of them are vegetarian and you'd be lucky to get .5%. It's a self selecting survey. You naturally filter out the SMBs that would have multiple machines and/or you get people to alter the number that they have to meet ESXi licensing and then look at them and say see... they didn't need a single pane of glass.
But go on SW or ML and see people regularly talk about making decisions around using second or third machines based on that licensing, it's a real factor.
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Well, if you're willing to use an agent based backup solution, you can use ESXi free on all the hosts, sure you don't get one pane for all hosts, but we're talking about SMBs here. I had no issue managing each ESXi host on it's own. The only reason I install vCenter was - well, because I already paid for it, I might as well try it out and see what it's like. I would have been happy to manage my two boxes separately. These two panes would have still been less than the number of apps needed to mange one Hyper-V host.
In that situation, XS is a clear winner - completely free open APIs. A free backup solution in XO.
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@Dashrender said:
Well, if you're willing to use an agent based backup solution, you can use ESXi free on all the hosts, sure you don't get one pane for all hosts, but we're talking about SMBs here. I had no issue managing each ESXi host on it's own.
No, but people do. That's why we keep saying single pane of glass, because it is relatively important. It's a major gap. You want one view into the farm, not to treat each machine individually. That seems almost silly in this day and age. especially when single pane of glass is free.
If you aren't getting single pane and aren't even getting API backups... why are you choosing ESXi?
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@Dashrender said:
These two panes would have still been less than the number of apps needed to mange one Hyper-V host.
Two, sure. But then you eventually add a third. It sprawls naturally.
