Non-IT News Thread
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Well as long as you studied all the federal finance and tax laws, then I will believe you.
I provided that laws that exist for the case. Both the laws that we found, and standard legal operating procedures, make it expected to be the obvious case. You are stating that something both unlikely, and that we can't find any law to cover, must be true. But it's not obvious and there's no reason to expect it to be true.
You are basically saying that Zeus must exist, because we can't prove otherwise. You can't effectively prove the negative. If there is a law that makes something like this true, it might be really hard to find, but given that it doesn't follow standard US law, is in no way likely, and doesn't come up when researching this, you really need to provide something that shows that there are laws about this given that the existing laws very, very specifically don't cover it (and would never be expected to and I'm not even sure how they could.)
It's a nonsensical situation that would cover such a broad range of things that making such a law would effectively make American business impossible. It's as simple as... such a law can't actually exist. But if it did, it would be so dramatically problematic that you should be able to find it incredibly quickly, because people would be crippled by it daily.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Well as long as you studied all the federal finance and tax laws, then I will believe you.
You did notice that FindLaw, the largest law library online, stated explicitly that I was correct, right? They didn't quote the laws behind it, because obviously laws don't exist to ALLOW things, only to disallow them, so conceptually they can't. But it's considered so obvious and well known that they were able to state it on the link that you provided to me about the very limited situations where you can't expose them.
Here is the same data from Cornell's Law Library, as well, but it's identical so not very exciting, since both are just stating the US law code...
-
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
I understand that you or others may not get up in arms about, but I sure do. I look at many issues like this and still get upset even though I know there is nothing that I can do about it.
When have you gotten up in arms before, though? You never mention things like random peoples' info being disclosed. Why is this one time special?
I don't have to be public about them and I don't see every post here either. Plus if others reply that cover my same thoughts, no need to respond. When it comes to many security stories, my sentiments are already included in the story or replies.
This one gets me because Trump tax records have been a huge issue for 5 years now. Trump DOES NOT have to release his tax records. Done, end of story. Move on with real issues. Now "somehow" the NYT obtains private tax records, yet I don't see anywhere here or in the comments on NYT complaining about how the NYT received stolen information as an issue.
That is why I spoke up about this. I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
It applies because it states that tax returns are considered private and confidential. Plus, I'm sure there is a law somewhere that then applies to anyone else who touches that information. One doesn't need to be a tax lawyer to know that.
No, that's not how it works. It's only private and confidential until released. But it's released. So that has no assumption of applicability.
It was released by someone and that is where the applicability lies.
Sure, but not the NYT. And honestly, who cares? Should process of law be followed? Yes. Is it relevant here? Nope.
If tax records were release by anyone other than Trump or his POA to the NYT, then the NYT is in possession of stolen goods.Think about it... the biggest news story in the world today, overshadowing a European war that has broken out, is going on... and your saying that we shouldn't be so concerned with the news, but instead focus on something so trivial that regardless of the outcome, no one cares as it affects no one.
I don't but apparently Russ Buettner, Susanne Craig and Mike McIntire and NY Times thinks so.
I'm not saying that if someone committed a crime that there shouldn't be an investigation, of course there should be. But it's a crime on par with a HIPAA violation made against every American citizen nearly all the time by nearly every doctor's office. It's wrong, it's our private data, but we don't overshadow real news with being concerned about minor privacy leaks that happen every day. That's all this is in the background. it's literally "background noise" and completely inconsequential on a news level.
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
How is this not background noise? Let's say his daughter found the papers and handed them over - no law was broken, save perhaps theft of papers from him... but that is such a minor crime compared the potential of the returns shows, that literally NO ONE cares about.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
Not really. We don't get up and arms when it happens to anyone else. Just this one specific case. That's a problem. That it happens to nearly everyone, that's a problem. This one, isolated incident... no, it's background noise and shouldn't be something the American public talks about. Any more than we talk about how a car was stolen from some old lady in Detroit today. Is it bad that it happened? Absolutely. Is it relevant on the national stage? Not at all.
I understand that you or others may not get up in arms about, but I sure do. I look at many issues like this and still get upset even though I know there is nothing that I can do about it.
Well sure, individually you do, but nationally - most won't, most people will be like meh, who cares.. if anything - good for them for leaking it.
-
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
It applies because it states that tax returns are considered private and confidential. Plus, I'm sure there is a law somewhere that then applies to anyone else who touches that information. One doesn't need to be a tax lawyer to know that.
No, that's not how it works. It's only private and confidential until released. But it's released. So that has no assumption of applicability.
It was released by someone and that is where the applicability lies.
Sure, but not the NYT. And honestly, who cares? Should process of law be followed? Yes. Is it relevant here? Nope.
If tax records were release by anyone other than Trump or his POA to the NYT, then the NYT is in possession of stolen goods.Think about it... the biggest news story in the world today, overshadowing a European war that has broken out, is going on... and your saying that we shouldn't be so concerned with the news, but instead focus on something so trivial that regardless of the outcome, no one cares as it affects no one.
I don't but apparently Russ Buettner, Susanne Craig and Mike McIntire and NY Times thinks so.
I'm not saying that if someone committed a crime that there shouldn't be an investigation, of course there should be. But it's a crime on par with a HIPAA violation made against every American citizen nearly all the time by nearly every doctor's office. It's wrong, it's our private data, but we don't overshadow real news with being concerned about minor privacy leaks that happen every day. That's all this is in the background. it's literally "background noise" and completely inconsequential on a news level.
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
How is this not background noise? Let's say his daughter found the papers and handed them over - no law was broken, save perhaps theft of papers from him... but that is such a minor crime compared the potential of the returns shows, that literally NO ONE cares about.
My only point was, do you want someone handing your info to a news paper, who already knows that they are receiving stolen property to publish their findings?
If that is minor, then OK, we can always agree to disagree about what is a minor privacy issue or a major one.
If the individual behind the release of Trumps private tax record information is background noise compared to a European war, then so is his paying only $750 in taxes.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Now "somehow" the NYT obtains private tax records, yet I don't see anywhere here or in the comments on NYT complaining about how the NYT received stolen information as an issue.
That is why I spoke up about this. I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours.This isn't how things work. We don't know that the tax records were private, that's an assumption. We don't have the slightest reason to think that the IRS was involved for reasons I stated before. The NYT is protected from disclosing that information as a constitutional right of dramatically higher importance than the leak itself.
This is misdirection. Something of tremendous importance has happened. And we are stuck discussing something of trivial comparative importance that we don't even have any specific reason to think has happened other than it being a real possibility.
You can't go after the constitution just because you don't conveniently have proof that something didn't happen. This makes no sense.
There are layers and layers of "doesn't add up" here. It sounds scary and important when we say "I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours." Of course we don't want that. But we have no reason to think that that happened here. This is "what if" risk talking. Imagine if someone ran into your IT office and said "I don't know where I left my USB stick this morning, and since I can't prove where it is, I have to assume IT stole it and took my private data." Sure, that could have happened, but we have no reason to think that it did.
That's where we are with this. Something big and important is happening. Maybe something far, far less important happened, maybe. But we don't know and can't know. So getting misdirected to even discuss it is a problem.
If conceptually you feel the federal government is stealing private data, that's a completely different problem that I know nothing about. Do you truly feel that the IRS is a risk to you and me and everyone else in the "steals our tax returns and publishes them" sort of way? Because I don't think that that's a rational fear, especially as if they actually did that, we'd see the results of it all the time.
-
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
Not really. We don't get up and arms when it happens to anyone else. Just this one specific case. That's a problem. That it happens to nearly everyone, that's a problem. This one, isolated incident... no, it's background noise and shouldn't be something the American public talks about. Any more than we talk about how a car was stolen from some old lady in Detroit today. Is it bad that it happened? Absolutely. Is it relevant on the national stage? Not at all.
I understand that you or others may not get up in arms about, but I sure do. I look at many issues like this and still get upset even though I know there is nothing that I can do about it.
Well sure, individually you do, but nationally - most won't, most people will be like meh, who cares.. if anything - good for them for leaking it.
But do you want them leaking yours?
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
If the individual behind the release of Trumps private tax record information is background noise compared to a European war, then so is his paying only $750 in taxes.
No, that's not at all true. Not in the slightest.
Everything you are saying has one common thread... you are trying to make what is likely one person maybe or maybe not committing a crime (the maybe NOT here is a pretty big deal) that affects one person not getting away with something and comparing it to treason on a national scale that affects every American and really, every global citizen.
It's like comparing one person punching someone in a bar fight to dropping a nuclear bomb on a city. Except where the bomb is real the the punch is just speculative!
Should you punch people in bar fights? No, not normally. Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things. OMG no.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
It applies because it states that tax returns are considered private and confidential. Plus, I'm sure there is a law somewhere that then applies to anyone else who touches that information. One doesn't need to be a tax lawyer to know that.
No, that's not how it works. It's only private and confidential until released. But it's released. So that has no assumption of applicability.
It was released by someone and that is where the applicability lies.
Sure, but not the NYT. And honestly, who cares? Should process of law be followed? Yes. Is it relevant here? Nope.
If tax records were release by anyone other than Trump or his POA to the NYT, then the NYT is in possession of stolen goods.Think about it... the biggest news story in the world today, overshadowing a European war that has broken out, is going on... and your saying that we shouldn't be so concerned with the news, but instead focus on something so trivial that regardless of the outcome, no one cares as it affects no one.
I don't but apparently Russ Buettner, Susanne Craig and Mike McIntire and NY Times thinks so.
I'm not saying that if someone committed a crime that there shouldn't be an investigation, of course there should be. But it's a crime on par with a HIPAA violation made against every American citizen nearly all the time by nearly every doctor's office. It's wrong, it's our private data, but we don't overshadow real news with being concerned about minor privacy leaks that happen every day. That's all this is in the background. it's literally "background noise" and completely inconsequential on a news level.
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
How is this not background noise? Let's say his daughter found the papers and handed them over - no law was broken, save perhaps theft of papers from him... but that is such a minor crime compared the potential of the returns shows, that literally NO ONE cares about.
My only point was, do you want someone handing your info to a news paper, who already knows that they are receiving stolen property to publish their findings?
If that is minor, then OK, we can always agree to disagree about what is a minor privacy issue or a major one.
If the individual behind the release of Trumps private tax record information is background noise compared to a European war, then so is his paying only $750 in taxes.
You're focused to much on what the data was.. and not on the actual crime.
Here's a better situation - did you not want the WaterGate leaks to happen? Did you not want Edward Snowden to leak the CIA documents?
I know I sure the HELL DID! absolutely I wanted those leaks to happen, be damned about any laws protecting private information.
So I guess we will agree to disagree about the 'fact' of Trumps personal taxes being disclosed, I do consider that 'fact' to be background noise, especially compared to what it could lead to investigations....
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
I agree but it doesn't make it right. Seeing its as "background noise" is the specific problem. It's not, it is HUGE problem.
Not really. We don't get up and arms when it happens to anyone else. Just this one specific case. That's a problem. That it happens to nearly everyone, that's a problem. This one, isolated incident... no, it's background noise and shouldn't be something the American public talks about. Any more than we talk about how a car was stolen from some old lady in Detroit today. Is it bad that it happened? Absolutely. Is it relevant on the national stage? Not at all.
I understand that you or others may not get up in arms about, but I sure do. I look at many issues like this and still get upset even though I know there is nothing that I can do about it.
Well sure, individually you do, but nationally - most won't, most people will be like meh, who cares.. if anything - good for them for leaking it.
But do you want them leaking yours?
To answer, what I consider to be an absolutely crazy question, yes, If I'm doing bad thing - I want mine leaked too.
But that's not what we are talking about here.
Not to mention, you haven't given any indication of where you think the leak happened.... It could have been a dropped USB stick as Scott mentioned, it could have been an envelope withe the wrong address on it.. it could have been anything - we don't know, and will likely NEVER find out.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
But do you want them leaking yours?
I think this statement sums it up.
You are so focused on the assumption that something you don't want to have happen having happened, that you are letting it totally derail a conversation about reality.
If and when information about how the data was disclosed comes out, then sure, a meaningful conversation about if that was right or wrong, how to protect against it, and so forth, could be valuable. Still trivial compared to the data in the leak, but worth discussing.
But you know how it is when someone comes down to IT ranting and raving because they are so pissed off because IT lost their data or did something wrong. Then they demand IT explain themselves. Then demand that processes be put in place to make sure it will never happen again. Then it turns out that the thing that they imagine never happened and was completely just something they had assumed? That's what this is like.
There's always the possibility that something "might have happened". But you are completely distracted by what isn't even that likely, and ignoring the situation at hand.
-
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
To answer, what I consider to be an absolutely crazy question, yes, If I'm doing bad thing - I want mine leaked too.
I agree. I would want mine leaked, yours leaked, etc. I wouldn't even want "leak" to apply, I'd want the IRS to have an obligation to publish it formally.
And if I was elected, I'd be intentionally being an enemy of the state if I withheld mine. I'd like existing politicians to be held to the standard I'd want myself held to. They shouldn't have to be "lesser people" that those of us that don't want to be politicians.
-
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
To answer, what I consider to be an absolutely crazy question, yes, If I'm doing bad thing - I want mine leaked too.
I agree. I would want mine leaked, yours leaked, etc. I wouldn't even want "leak" to apply, I'd want the IRS to have an obligation to publish it formally.
And if I was elected, I'd be intentionally being an enemy of the state if I withheld mine. I'd like existing politicians to be held to the standard I'd want myself held to. They shouldn't have to be "lesser people" that those of us that don't want to be politicians.
Agreed - if you are a politician, your finances should be 100% transparent. Period, At least from the time you announce you are running, and for 10 years after...
-
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Now "somehow" the NYT obtains private tax records, yet I don't see anywhere here or in the comments on NYT complaining about how the NYT received stolen information as an issue.
That is why I spoke up about this. I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours.This isn't how things work. We don't know that the tax records were private, that's an assumption. We don't have the slightest reason to think that the IRS was involved for reasons I stated before. The NYT is protected from disclosing that information as a constitutional right of dramatically higher importance than the leak itself.
This is misdirection. Something of tremendous importance has happened. And we are stuck discussing something of trivial comparative importance that we don't even have any specific reason to think has happened other than it being a real possibility.
You can't go after the constitution just because you don't conveniently have proof that something didn't happen. This makes no sense.
There are layers and layers of "doesn't add up" here. It sounds scary and important when we say "I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours." Of course we don't want that. But we have no reason to think that that happened here.
My first line stated that I was concerned that the NYT obtained private tax records and that it should be question on how they received that information.
I believe we have a huge reason to think that someone in the chain gave it away. All one had to do is watch any news channel to understand the reason. Hate Trump started the day he began his first campaign. For five years CNN, MSNBC, and every other station and news paper has been digging in to Trump. That seem like a good enough reason for me.
-
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
Not to mention, you haven't given any indication of where you think the leak happened.... It could have been a dropped USB stick as Scott mentioned, it could have been an envelope withe the wrong address on it.. it could have been anything - we don't know, and will likely NEVER find out.
We would likely only find out if a grand jury felt that there was enough evidence to warrant an investigation. Which is certainly possible, but there is also every possibility that the journalist isn't aware of how it was obtained, and the law says that he doesn't need to care. His job is to disclose regardless of how it is obtained, because it's part of the process of protecting our country.
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
My first line stated that I was concerned that the NYT obtained private tax records and that it should be question on how they received that information.
Right. But I could say that about anyone. I'm concerned that you run the IRS and have access to all their data. Prove you don't.
You have "concerns" but they are based purely on the possibility for a crime to have happened, not evidence suggesting that one did. It's like calling the police to say you are concerned about a car having been stolen and when they ask for details you explain that a prime parking space in front of a popular store is empty, so it's just likely that a car was stolen from that space.
Possible? Of course. Likely? No. Reason to be "concerned", absolutely not.
Your first line states two things that are speculative.... that the information was private, and that the implication that it was obtained inappropriately. Neither things is there any reason to suspect. None.
Then your response to those two unfounded points is... you now feel "...that it should be question on how they received that information." Which is a violation of the constitution. So boiling it down...
You feel that because you are afraid someone could have committed a minor crime, you think that our constitution should be suspended?
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
Now "somehow" the NYT obtains private tax records, yet I don't see anywhere here or in the comments on NYT complaining about how the NYT received stolen information as an issue.
That is why I spoke up about this. I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours.This isn't how things work. We don't know that the tax records were private, that's an assumption. We don't have the slightest reason to think that the IRS was involved for reasons I stated before. The NYT is protected from disclosing that information as a constitutional right of dramatically higher importance than the leak itself.
This is misdirection. Something of tremendous importance has happened. And we are stuck discussing something of trivial comparative importance that we don't even have any specific reason to think has happened other than it being a real possibility.
You can't go after the constitution just because you don't conveniently have proof that something didn't happen. This makes no sense.
There are layers and layers of "doesn't add up" here. It sounds scary and important when we say "I don't want anyone at the IRS or in the chain giving up mine or yours." Of course we don't want that. But we have no reason to think that that happened here.
My first line stated that I was concerned that the NYT obtained private tax records and that it should be question on how they received that information.
I believe we have a huge reason to think that someone in the chain gave it away. All one had to do is watch any news channel to understand the reason. Hate Trump started the day he began his first campaign. For five years CNN, MSNBC, and every other station and news paper has been digging in to Trump. That seem like a good enough reason for me.
Let me ask this - Let's assume you leaked it... and now they know.. and they prove it in a court of law...
what should happen now? Should you be imprisoned for life? should you be executed? Should you get a few years in jail? a fine? Should you get a slap on the wrist because it was your first offense....
OK great.. one of those things happens - that's put to bed.. NOW WHAT?
We still need to deal with what these tax returns we ARE aware of tell us...
-
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
To answer, what I consider to be an absolutely crazy question, yes, If I'm doing bad thing - I want mine leaked too.
I agree. I would want mine leaked, yours leaked, etc. I wouldn't even want "leak" to apply, I'd want the IRS to have an obligation to publish it formally.
And if I was elected, I'd be intentionally being an enemy of the state if I withheld mine. I'd like existing politicians to be held to the standard I'd want myself held to. They shouldn't have to be "lesser people" that those of us that don't want to be politicians.
Agreed - if you are a politician, your finances should be 100% transparent. Period, At least from the time you announce you are running, and for 10 years after...
But why? What does a President's tax return have anything to do with being President? The president doesn't control the money, congress does.
I do agree that any person controlling the money should show theirs but that is not what the President does. He asks and Congress gives. Congress can always say No!
-
@pmoncho said in Non-IT News Thread:
I believe we have a huge reason to think that someone in the chain gave it away.
Right, but we don't. It's perfectly reasonable to say that it's a possibility. It's crazy to go past that. There's zero evidence at this point. There's no smoking gun. There's no statements to that effect.
Your belief is purely either political bias, or irrational fear. It's not founded in reality and using an irrational fear, regardless of why it exists, is a really bad reason to start acting like we should tear up the foundations of law.
