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I don't think of "sir" as respectful, I find it just formal. They don't use it in the south for respect, it's just formality.
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@thanksaj was your dad in the military?
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@scottalanmiller said:
I don't think of "sir" as respectful, I find it just formal. They don't use it in the south for respect, it's just formality.
I guess I can see why you'd say that.
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i think we should change the title of this topic to be : when to and when not to use Mr
what do you think guys ?? -
LOL. I think the easiest guide for those outside the US or other primarily English speaking countries is... avoid Mr. or Sir. They are polite and not incorrect, but they are things that native speakers never use in normal conversation. They are too formal. Nothing wrong with them, but it is a formality that you don't need. IT Peers in the office would never be so formal with each other, for example. And a community like this is even less formal.
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@scottalanmiller said:
LOL. I think the easiest guide for those outside the US or other primarily English speaking countries is... avoid Mr. or Sir. They are polite and not incorrect, but they are things that native speakers never use in normal conversation. They are too formal. Nothing wrong with them, but it is a formality that you don't need. IT Peers in the office would never be so formal with each other, for example. And a community like this is even less formal.
Very well said. You won't offend anyone using them, but everyone will know you aren't a native English speaker.
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thanks for these informations
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@thanksaj said:
Very well said. You won't offend anyone using them, but everyone will know you aren't a native English speaker.
Yes, it's one of the ways that native English speakers can tell instantly that someone is non-native. I wonder if using them is taught or if it is a natural translation from local speech patterns. My guess is that it is taught. One of the dangers of having non-English speakers teaching English.
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@scottalanmiller said:
LOL. I think the easiest guide for those outside the US or other primarily English speaking countries is... avoid Mr. or Sir. They are polite and not incorrect, but they are things that native speakers never use in normal conversation. They are too formal. Nothing wrong with them, but it is a formality that you don't need. IT Peers in the office would never be so formal with each other, for example. And a community like this is even less formal.
You obviously weren't raised in the South. Generally speaking unless you are given permission by that person to use their first name you don't.... ever. I have a fond memory of being smacked upside the head by a large woman in a McDonalds once because I didn't use the correct formality with an adult. It may be a thing only children do but it has really stuck with me....
Of course when I moved north my parents went to a parent/teacher conference about the unnecessary use of formality in the classroom, the teacher thought I was being disruptive and patronizing her.
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller said:
LOL. I think the easiest guide for those outside the US or other primarily English speaking countries is... avoid Mr. or Sir. They are polite and not incorrect, but they are things that native speakers never use in normal conversation. They are too formal. Nothing wrong with them, but it is a formality that you don't need. IT Peers in the office would never be so formal with each other, for example. And a community like this is even less formal.
You obviously weren't raised in the South. Generally speaking unless you are given permission by that person to use their first name you don't.... ever. I have a fond memory of being smacked upside the head by a large woman in a McDonalds once because I didn't use the correct formality with an adult. It may be a thing only children do but it has really stuck with me....
Of course when I moved north my parents went to a parent/teacher conference about the unnecessary use of formality in the classroom, the teacher thought I was being disruptive and patronizing her.
That's the very definition of formality. In the north it's seen as either southerns acting like inferiors, which we find odd, or, more commonly, since it is so formal and unwarranted it comes across as mocking. But even southerners never use it when talking in forums, for example. It's use to show someone mock respect, like when talking to a cashier at McDonald's. If southerns use it in a business setting, it puts them at a natural disadvantage. Having worked in the south for a lot of my career, though, I've never heard it used in professional settings, only in transactions like gas stations and fast food. Or when parents demand it from children because they think that enforced formality is what respect is.
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It's like the military. Soldiers don't respect their trainers. That's why the trainers have to require them to say sir. It's not a sign of respect because it isn't voluntary. It's a combination of enforced formality or just mocking.
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@scottalanmiller Understood... it is a really hard habit that I have yet to break...
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@coliver said:
@scottalanmiller Understood... it is a really hard habit that I have yet to break...
I'm sure, growing up having to say that all of the time is tough. It's the linguistic equivalent to being hit in the hand for writing left handed (I know a guy who was crippled in his left hand because some nuns brutalized him to the point of disability for being left handed.) It's one of the reasons that we home school - because we live in the south sometimes and we don't want our kids growing up in that fake respect environment. It doesn't happen in adult interactions that we see anymore, but in the schools it carries on because there isn't the good oversight that there should be. It's a pretty minor reason, but a reason that we have considered.
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What blows my mind is that adults actually want people to call them sir or ma'am. So weird. To me, false respect like that is disrespect - a way to publicly announce that someone isn't your peer and you use a formal title to show that you only address them because it is required, not because they have earned it. I understand when I have a completely ad hoc interaction (grocery store, restaurant, whatever) that it is just formality and the person is doing it without thinking. I don't take offense. But when used by people who know you and it is a regular interaction, to me as a northerner, it's very disrespectful in the way that it is normally used. Very holding you at arm's length, very clear that someone doesn't like you or think much of you.
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@scottalanmiller said:
What blows my mind is that adults actually want people to call them sir or ma'am. So weird. To me, false respect like that is disrespect - a way to publicly announce that someone isn't your peer and you use a formal title to show that you only address them because it is required, not because they have earned it. I understand when I have a completely ad hoc interaction (grocery store, restaurant, whatever) that it is just formality and the person is doing it without thinking. I don't take offense. But when used by people who know you and it is a regular interaction, to me as a northerner, it's very disrespectful in the way that it is normally used. Very holding you at arm's length, very clear that someone doesn't like you or think much of you.
A way of purposefully distancing yourself from someone.
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You see, there are people like my best friend Carl, who calls EVERYONE sir or madam. But if you ever spoke to him, even though he'd say it, it's so casual and cool, you wouldn't be put off at all. He's the only one I've ever seen who can pull that stunt.
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@thanksaj said:
You see, there are people like my best friend Carl, who calls EVERYONE sir or madam. But if you ever spoke to him, even though he'd say it, it's so casual and cool, you wouldn't be put off at all. He's the only one I've ever seen who can pull that stunt.
Yes, HOW it is done does make a difference. And when people from outside of English speaking countries do it, you know that it is just a formality that they are emulating, not one done in a specific way.
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@scottalanmiller said:
@thanksaj said:
You see, there are people like my best friend Carl, who calls EVERYONE sir or madam. But if you ever spoke to him, even though he'd say it, it's so casual and cool, you wouldn't be put off at all. He's the only one I've ever seen who can pull that stunt.
Yes, HOW it is done does make a difference. And when people from outside of English speaking countries do it, you know that it is just a formality that they are emulating, not one done in a specific way.
Yup. Tone, pitch, timbre of the voice, all of it factor in.
