Not Using Huawei



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder Finally, we're going to see an epic rise in AMD's market share (more so than the already growing trend).
    AMD will be ryzing up epically!

    I'm just waiting for an integrated AMD EPYC Rome single socket barebones that utilizes ESDFF .L with 32 bays to allow for 1PB in 1U or 2PB in 2U. We're not a SuperMicro fan here, so we shall see which vendor drops in first. 🙂

    Huawei maybe.

    No way here. Would never deploy any of their products. Period.

    Some papers released on backdoors in their firmware and management. It painted a very disconcerting light.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder Finally, we're going to see an epic rise in AMD's market share (more so than the already growing trend).
    AMD will be ryzing up epically!

    I'm just waiting for an integrated AMD EPYC Rome single socket barebones that utilizes ESDFF .L with 32 bays to allow for 1PB in 1U or 2PB in 2U. We're not a SuperMicro fan here, so we shall see which vendor drops in first. 🙂

    Huawei maybe.

    No way here. Would never deploy any of their products. Period.

    Some papers released on backdoors in their firmware and management. It painted a very disconcerting light.

    I've not seen any of their compute equipment with that yet. But pretty much every other vendor has. I've been watching closely because the US has made claims abotu that, but not provided any evidence yet. AFAIK, no backdoors in their server gear has been found. Making them the "least" backdoored equipment, and a reason to not avoid them at all. In fact, lack of backdoors is often a reason that they are popular.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder Finally, we're going to see an epic rise in AMD's market share (more so than the already growing trend).
    AMD will be ryzing up epically!

    I'm just waiting for an integrated AMD EPYC Rome single socket barebones that utilizes ESDFF .L with 32 bays to allow for 1PB in 1U or 2PB in 2U. We're not a SuperMicro fan here, so we shall see which vendor drops in first. 🙂

    Huawei maybe.

    No way here. Would never deploy any of their products. Period.

    Some papers released on backdoors in their firmware and management. It painted a very disconcerting light.

    I've not seen any of their compute equipment with that yet. But pretty much every other vendor has. I've been watching closely because the US has made claims abotu that, but not provided any evidence yet. AFAIK, no backdoors in their server gear has been found. Making them the "least" backdoored equipment, and a reason to not avoid them at all. In fact, lack of backdoors is often a reason that they are popular.

    The catch is that the backdoors are backed by a Communist Dictatorship. Thanks. But no thanks.



  • A quick search on Huawei backdoors, which I've done before, seems to only bring up the well known 2009 dispute with Vodafone that was recently republished as if it was current and was never determined if it was a back door or not. But was closed a decade ago.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    A quick search on Huawei backdoors, which I've done before, seems to only bring up the well known 2009 dispute with Vodafone that was recently republished as if it was current and was never determined if it was a back door or not. But was closed a decade ago.

    Lots here including the research paper I'm referencing.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    The catch is that the backdoors are backed by a Communist Dictatorship. Thanks. But no thanks.

    HAHAH, um okay. So this is made up. So yes, it's fine that you are not supporting Huawei for personal political reasons, but please don't claim things like backdoors that were never actually found. And don't claim a communist backing, also something no one has provided evidence of.

    Statements like this are some of the best support you could give for Huawei being the best vendor... that absolutely nothing actually negative can be said about them.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    A quick search on Huawei backdoors, which I've done before, seems to only bring up the well known 2009 dispute with Vodafone that was recently republished as if it was current and was never determined if it was a back door or not. But was closed a decade ago.

    Lots here including the research paper I'm referencing.

    Any actual news sources? That list is pretty sketchy.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    The catch is that the backdoors are backed by a Communist Dictatorship. Thanks. But no thanks.

    HAHAH, um okay. So this is made up. So yes, it's fine that you are not supporting Huawei for personal political reasons, but please don't claim things like backdoors that were never actually found. And don't claim a communist backing, also something no one has provided evidence of.

    Statements like this are some of the best support you could give for Huawei being the best vendor... that absolutely nothing actually negative can be said about them.

    Dude, I find it very perplexing that one can separate the government backing the companies in a country when they essentially own all of the companies in that country and can, and do, dictate the direction of said companies.



  • Pretty weird if there was an actual back door found, that it was deemed so unimportant that no news outlet has picked it up yet.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Dude, I find it very perplexing that one can separate the government backing the companies in a country when they essentially own all of the companies in that country and can, and do, dictate the direction of said companies.

    That's not actually how it works. Plus one can clearly say the same about the US. It's perplexing to think that by the nature of being an Chinese investor, that one must be a communist, and to think that by being a communist itself, is somehow a bad thing. It's a government form, and nothing to do with good or bad.

    Everything about that logic is just... illogical.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Pretty weird if there was an actual back door found, that it was deemed so unimportant that no news outlet has picked it up yet.

    Because Orange man did something with Huawai and mainstream media is incredibly deadset on ignoring all good he does and portraying 100% bad things they think he's doing or saying.

    You know, like "Trump's a racist!!!", when he's...obviously not.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    dictate the direction of said companies.

    The US can do this, too. So by your logic, all companies, in all countries, must be avoided. It's not a usable approach, even if true.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Dude, I find it very perplexing that one can separate the government backing the companies in a country when they essentially own all of the companies in that country and can, and do, dictate the direction of said companies.

    That's not actually how it works. Plus one can clearly say the same about the US. It's perplexing to think that by the nature of being an Chinese investor, that one must be a communist, and to think that by being a communist itself, is somehow a bad thing. It's a government form, and nothing to do with good or bad.

    Everything about that logic is just... illogical.

    China is communist, it is a very bad thing. They've killed countless millions over the years of China's communist existence.
    From an economic standpoint, Communism never works, however, thanks to the change in Private property and loosening of economic law, China thrives, mostly.

    Have you heard what's going on in Hong Kong? China is trying to take control of it, despite their agreement with Hong Kong. (Which Hong Kong by the way, is arguably the most successful capitalistic society next to the US)



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    dictate the direction of said companies.

    The US can do this, too. So by your logic, all companies, in all countries, must be avoided. It's not a usable approach, even if true.

    Scott, not going there.

    There is a distinct difference between what happens in China and what happens in the USofA.

    I'm out.



  • @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    There is a distinct difference between what happens in China and what happens in the USofA.
    I'm out.

    Yes, the US has been busted for forcing back doors several times. The difference is huge.

    And the US keeps using Lenovo, even after it was busted for it multiple times.

    That "actual concerns" are what is driving these decisions cannot be true.



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Dude, I find it very perplexing that one can separate the government backing the companies in a country when they essentially own all of the companies in that country and can, and do, dictate the direction of said companies.

    That's not actually how it works. Plus one can clearly say the same about the US. It's perplexing to think that by the nature of being an Chinese investor, that one must be a communist, and to think that by being a communist itself, is somehow a bad thing. It's a government form, and nothing to do with good or bad.

    Everything about that logic is just... illogical.

    China is communist, it is a very bad thing. They've killed countless millions over the years of China's communist existence.
    From an economic standpoint, Communism never works, however, thanks to the change in Private property and loosening of economic law, China thrives, mostly.

    Have you heard what's going on in Hong Kong? China is trying to take control of it, despite their agreement with Hong Kong. (Which Hong Kong by the way, is arguably the most successful capitalistic society next to the US)

    That a bad government is also communist doesn't make being communist the problem. You can point to terrible things under all kinds of governments.

    The problem with these kinds of concerns is that race, ideology, and many other disconnected things are being used as a foundation for other concerns. And they are done randomly. No matter how bad China's government is to their own people, is neither here nor there to a concern that they "own" a business that we have absolutely zero reason to believe that they own, nor that if they did that they would attempt to do something that there is no evidence that they have tried to do, nor does that imply that they could do it if they tried.

    All while ignoring actual governments and companies repeatedly getting caught for doing the same thing.

    Also, ignoring the risks. The risks of China putting a back door into a US server is trivial. The risk of the US doing so is huge. China ha essentially nothing to gain by doing so to most of us, but the US has something to gain from all of us.

    So if we use logic and standard risk management, things like "its a bad government" never really area factor, because that itself doesn't affect us. It's terrible that they are bad, yes, but that's an unrelated matter and doesn't influence the server situation.

    Now, you don't want to buy a server to give money to people who will ultimately be taxed by that government, sure. But that would need to be stated in a completely different way.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @PhlipElder said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Dude, I find it very perplexing that one can separate the government backing the companies in a country when they essentially own all of the companies in that country and can, and do, dictate the direction of said companies.

    That's not actually how it works. Plus one can clearly say the same about the US. It's perplexing to think that by the nature of being an Chinese investor, that one must be a communist, and to think that by being a communist itself, is somehow a bad thing. It's a government form, and nothing to do with good or bad.

    Everything about that logic is just... illogical.

    China is communist, it is a very bad thing. They've killed countless millions over the years of China's communist existence.
    From an economic standpoint, Communism never works, however, thanks to the change in Private property and loosening of economic law, China thrives, mostly.

    Have you heard what's going on in Hong Kong? China is trying to take control of it, despite their agreement with Hong Kong. (Which Hong Kong by the way, is arguably the most successful capitalistic society next to the US)

    That a bad government is also communist doesn't make being communist the problem. You can point to terrible things under all kinds of governments.

    Well this certainly gives both China and communism a bad name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China
    And even further, this is Communism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
    Now, Communism, if you're reading about what it is from a book, sure, it doesn't sound so bad, but it requires doing horrendous things to other human beings every time.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    All while ignoring actual governments and companies repeatedly getting caught for doing the same thing.

    Also, ignoring the risks. The risks of China putting a back door into a US server is trivial. The risk of the US doing so is huge. China ha essentially nothing to gain by doing so to most of us, but the US has something to gain from all of us.

    Also, the US losing hundreds of billions per year is a big problem. (Not that we're already spending ourselves to death on our ridiculous programs, but still.)
    China loves stealing US technology, so a backdoor being open, is a big problem. https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/23/technology/china-us-trump-tariffs-ip-theft/index.html
    I still hate the tariff BS though, there are other ways to combat China...



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    China loves stealing US technology, so a backdoor being open, is a big problem

    Only if you have secrets worth stealing, which while that might feel common, it actually isn't. At most maybe .1% of companies have something even worth stealing, and having a back door and being able to steal them is a big gap yet. If you are in that .1%, absolutely, things like this are potentially a big concern. Totally, I'm with you.

    But for most companies, even if 100% of their data was packed up and shipped to CHina in a box with a bow, it would be worthless.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    So if we use logic and standard risk management, things like "its a bad government" never really area factor, because that itself doesn't affect us. It's terrible that they are bad, yes, but that's an unrelated matter and doesn't influence the server situation.

    Now, you don't want to buy a server to give money to people who will ultimately be taxed by that government, sure. But that would need to be stated in a completely different way.

    Oh well I mean as long as the server doesn't have a backdoor to a foreign government, then sure, wherever a given piece of hardware or software doesn't matter.
    I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    China loves stealing US technology, so a backdoor being open, is a big problem

    Only if you have secrets worth stealing, which while that might feel common, it actually isn't. At most maybe .1% of companies have something even worth stealing, and having a back door and being able to steal them is a big gap yet. If you are in that .1%, absolutely, things like this are potentially a big concern. Totally, I'm with you.

    But for most companies, even if 100% of their data was packed up and shipped to CHina in a box with a bow, it would be worthless.

    Well of course, but regardless, I still wouldn't be comfortable knowing that my hardware has a backdoor broadcasting our companies information to China, or anyone for that matter.
    What if China takes PCI related information and leaks it either intentionally or unintentionally (data gets hacked for example)?
    Then my fictional company would be liable for that information being out in the open.
    Is this sort of situation possible? Of course. Is it probable? No lol...But that's not the point either.



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.

    I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.

    BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.

    Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.

    Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Well of course, but regardless, I still wouldn't be comfortable knowing that my hardware has a backdoor broadcasting our companies information to China, or anyone for that matter.

    Sure, but if you include "anyone", then US gear is the most risky. Both because it is routinely found to be the ones with the backdoors and because the US government is the ones that can easily make use of nearly any data you have.

    Basically you can't completely avoid back doors... but you can go with vendors like Huawei with a better track record, and you can account for which backdoors are greater or lesser risks to your business. That's about it.

    Other than open source, where you can actively reduce overall risks. But this rarely applies to hardware, which is where the real problems are.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.

    I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.

    BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.

    Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.

    Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.

    It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
    Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want.



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.

    I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.

    BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.

    Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.

    Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.

    It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
    Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want.

    Right, if "the government can interfere" is the logic, we need to close the border and ban all trade with that country. If a single product (okay, maybe not simply plastic stuff) is allowed through, then it implies "intentionally promoting foreign spying" if the first logic was true. Since everything isn't banned, and especially that Lenovo who is known to spy over and over again, is not banned, then the gov't has no actual concern and the ban is fake.

    But that's a separate issue from the risk to business vs "just doing good things" logic. Huawei simply isn't a business risk, that much is clear. It's neither a known spy, nor a likely spy, nor as risky as any other major vendor. But money that goes to Huawei will be taxed and fund a government that you don't want to support is very real and a reason to not buy any Chinese product... but requires not buying any Chinese product because shoes, shirts, boxes, toys, servers all equally have the problem of funding the regime.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    I'm not sure what you mean in your last two sentences though.

    I mean your logic should result in this. Avoiding Huawei or any other specific vendor should be based on the actions and risks of that vendor, not a concern about the "evilness" of their government. Because the two are separate no matter what people like to claim.

    BUT... if you do buy from Huawei, then even though Huawei has been pretty solidly shown to be completely clean on their own, their corporate tax revenue will flow to the Chinese government. And that is bad. So avoiding Huewei because you think that they are risky, doesn't make sense. Avoiding them because you don't want to support the Chinese government through taxable revenue, does make sense.

    Basically... the more we analyze it, the less risk Huewei has as a company or product. Reality is, it's probably just about the safest gear that you can buy today, there is no vendor more heavily monitored, tested, questioned, suspected, etc. If there was anything to be found, it would have been found for sure. Moreso, if there is one vendor that the Chinese gov't is going to want to avoid being anywhere near, it is them. There is a massive political and market pressure to make sure that if the gov't is going to interfere with someone, that it be anyone but them.

    Basically, if the Chinese gov't is interfering with companies, and likely they are just like the US does, the place that they are least likely to do it is Huawei at this point.

    It is pretty ridiculous to ban one company from a country. Why not instead just tell consumers to watch out for their products, then when they are forced to remove the backdoor or whatever the issue may be, they can continue making money.
    Consumers should be left to choose whichever products they want.

    Right, if "the government can interfere" is the logic, we need to close the border and ban all trade with that country. If a single product (okay, maybe not simply plastic stuff) is allowed through, then it implies "intentionally promoting foreign spying" if the first logic was true. Since everything isn't banned, and especially that Lenovo who is known to spy over and over again, is not banned, then the gov't has no actual concern and the ban is fake.

    But that's a separate issue from the risk to business vs "just doing good things" logic. Huawei simply isn't a business risk, that much is clear. It's neither a known spy, nor a likely spy, nor as risky as any other major vendor. But money that goes to Huawei will be taxed and fund a government that you don't want to support is very real and a reason to not buy any Chinese product... but requires not buying any Chinese product because shoes, shirts, boxes, toys, servers all equally have the problem of funding the regime.

    Ahhhh, yeah so this was likely more of a ploy to say, "In your face China! We're banning Huawei because, tariffs."
    lol.........

    Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?

    This gets sticky, as China isn't actually communist at all. They use the term, but are actually a single party dictatorship. Communism the political concept, and countries that use the term, generally don't overlap. Communism has good and bad concepts. It's biggest problems, of real communism, are a lack of efficiency and an inability to encourage investment and growth. Most people use communism to refer to places like China, which are actually capitalist (moreso than the US, in fact) quite far from communism, but use the term a lot. It's one of those "he doth protest too much" things. Countries tend to call themselves communist to divert attention from what they really are. Real communism has problems, but none of the ones we are concerned about in China. Problems of planned economies, cracking down on dissidents, lacking democracy.... those are unrelated problems, but ones that historically America has branded as communism for Cold War reasons.

    Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example? Absolutely not. There is no government practicing communism on any scale that would show it to be good or bad or indifferent. Some communist concepts exists in them, but some exist in the US, too.

    It's also important to note... communism is in no way an alternative to democracy. Imagine any country voting for communism - instantly you have both. In fact, accepting communism is a problem of democracies. Democracies don't protect against communism and other "poor" resulting government forms, so it's actually a good example of why democracies are bad. Because all democracies, given time, will vote out freedom and once voted out, there's no vote to get it back.



  • Freedom, like the Brexit, is a "ratchet vote", given enough times voting for a one way decision, it's a guaranteed outcome. You just can't guarantee how long it will take.



  • @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?

    Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example?

    Venezuela, Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, and yeah China.



  • @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @scottalanmiller said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    @kamidon said in Spec'ing a new computer from Dell or?:

    Ok but we can agree that communism is bad right?

    Is communism bad? Yes. But very bad? No. Is there any communist country to really point to as an example?

    Venezuela, Soviet Union, Vietnam, North Korea, and yeah China.

    Right, all not communist. Hence my point. All dictators not practicing communism.

    All have some communist points, but I covered all this in what I wrote... that specifically these weren't communist, but use it as something that they say to cover up what they actually are... dictators or oligarchies. Very, very different from communism.


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