What Makes Something An Appliance
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
My feeling on it is not that an appliance is not general purpose, not that an appliance is a purpose built system meant for a single task (probably by a third party but not necessarily.)
Then I would go back to this definition in that the product was purpose built for a single task and not general purpose.
But how do you define who built the product?
Okay, lets go back to the Unix/Linux storyline.
Bell Labs built Unix for a purpose. Time goes on, Linus Torvalds takes the source code and repurposes it into Linux. He took it and made something else out of it.
Well. None of that happened.
Bell Labs made Unix for general purpose.
Linus made Linux separately with nothing from Bell Labs to also be general purpose.
Two independent products, same goals.
Okay, maybe I don't remember my history very well, but none the less.
Lets say you build a product to solve problem A. And it works great, but then problem B comes along and you allow me the right to modify the design of your product so that I can develop a new product to solve product B. You would be the originator of product A and I would be the originator of Product B. If somebody comes along and creates an Add-on to my product B, its still product b, but with an add-on.
Is adding a web page "modifying the design" though?
No, I'd consider it an add-on. The original design of the product is still there and functioning as designed. Some marketing just decided to rebrand it to something else.
Right. So appliance is marketing?
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
There may be some tribal knowledge going on within the industry as to why its called an appliance. Just a term with really no meaning, but sounds cool.
I think "purpose" can make sense. But I wonder how useful the term remains.
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Appliance starts to overlap with "supported".
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Are you trying to teach us/lead us to something or are we exploring something new together?
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Server: In computing, a server is a computer program or a device that provides functionality for other programs or devices, called "clients". This architecture is called the client–server model, and a single overall computation is distributed across multiple processes or devices.
Appliance: Computing devices with a specific function and limited configuration ability.
There IS some overlap. Both can be devices. Example: Dell R730xd and Microwave. One is an appliance, but not a server. One is an appliance for sure, and one has potential to be an appliance.
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If we are still considering servers, are we going to address servers as services to other clients (server such as DHCP server/client such as DHCP client) or as another box (virtual or physical) with an OS?
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Appliance: Computing devices with a specific function and limited configuration ability.
There IS some overlap. Both can be devices. Example: Dell R730xd and Microwave. One is an appliance, but not a server. One is an appliance for sure, and one has potential to be an appliance.
So, we have two things defined with an 'and' statement: specific function AND limited configuration ability
I would like to add "intended" to make "intended specific function". Because with the FreeNAS example, that makes all the difference... intention. It's intended for a specific function, but is your ability to configure it limited?
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@NerdyDad said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Are you trying to teach us/lead us to something or are we exploring something new together?
Exploring the idea. So I'm tackling any definition. If we can tear them all apart, then the term is probably useless. But if we find one that we can defend, maybe it is useful.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Server: In computing, a server is a computer program or a device that provides functionality for other programs or devices, called "clients". This architecture is called the client–server model, and a single overall computation is distributed across multiple processes or devices.
Appliance: Computing devices with a specific function and limited configuration ability.
There IS some overlap. Both can be devices. Example: Dell R730xd and Microwave. One is an appliance, but not a server. One is an appliance for sure, and one has potential to be an appliance.
The limiting might be critical... but that makes nearly everything that people normally consider to be an appliance, not to be.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Appliance: Computing devices with a specific function and limited configuration ability.
There IS some overlap. Both can be devices. Example: Dell R730xd and Microwave. One is an appliance, but not a server. One is an appliance for sure, and one has potential to be an appliance.
So, we have two things defined with an 'and' statement: specific function AND limited configuration ability
I would like to add "intended" to make "intended specific function". Because with the FreeNAS example, that makes all the difference... intention. It's intended for a specific function, but is your ability to configure it limited?
No, not limited at all. Zero limits. Hence the maintenance of "100% general purpose" in addition to the "intention" of storage.
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This is where I see Kace or NetApp as different.. they are limited AND specific.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
The limiting might be critical... but that makes nearly everything that people normally consider to be an appliance, not to be.
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
No, not limited at all. Zero limits. Hence the maintenance of "100% general purpose" in addition to the "intention" of storage.
As long the definition I provided (from Wikipedia) is accurate regarding the "limited configuration ability" part.... but assuming it is...
Exactly! There are literally no configuration limits with FreeNAS.
Next step I think we need to define 'limiting'... limiting by what means? User/password limiting? Like in the KACE example, they won't give you the password to make configuration changes. Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
The limiting might be critical... but that makes nearly everything that people normally consider to be an appliance, not to be.
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
No, not limited at all. Zero limits. Hence the maintenance of "100% general purpose" in addition to the "intention" of storage.
As long the definition I provided (from Wikipedia) is accurate regarding the "limited configuration ability" part.... but assuming it is...
Exactly! There are literally no configuration limits with FreeNAS.
Next step I think we need to define 'limiting'... limiting by what means? User/password limiting? Like in the KACE example, they won't give you the password to make configuration changes. Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
That I'm not sure. To limit in the later sense would require.... well a lot and would always be a grey area. Name any system that is limited all the way to the kernel. If you can run code directly on the kernel, it's not actually limited. So NetApp and Kace would not be appliances either if we included that definition. I think that has to be too far, it just feels like an impossible goal. I literally know no appliance at that point.
I would say that the password / license / support restriction would be enough.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
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If we went by limits like that, then suddenly the tables would turn and Windows would be seen as an appliance by not including most functionality and requiring you to add it on. FreeNAS comes with pretty much anything you can imagine from databases to desktops. But Windows requires add ons for nearly anything. Suddenly the most often anti-appliance becomes the appliances and the appliances become the servers.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
Well, lets say you download FreeNAS and set it up on a physical or virtual server. You configure it for it's original purpose, as and only as a NAS. Now you password it, so nobody can make any configuration changes beyond the scope of the "NAS" purpose.
Now to who you set it up for, it can be considered at that point as an appliance. Edit: It's now serving as a specific purpose, and is now limiting their configuration ability.
But for you, it's not clear. Because you have the password, and can do what you want with hit. But who you set it up for and are supporting it for, different story.
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I'm going back and forth from both sides here, maybe that isn't clear. I try to prove and disprove at the same time, as if I'm a fanatic of both sides, and see which one stands.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@scottalanmiller said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
Or, limited due to design... as in it's just not possible.
By that, I mean not possible as it is. It may be possible by installing more software, packages, addons, etc... but that's not it's original purpose.
But what would be an example? All OSes require software added on to do things. The thing that makes something a general purpose OS is that you can run arbitrary code on it, not that it includes all potential functionality.
Well, lets say you download FreeNAS and set it up on a physical or virtual server. You configure it for it's original purpose, as and only as a NAS. Now you password it, so nobody can make any configuration changes beyond the scope of the "NAS" purpose.
Now to who you set it up for, it can be considered at that point as an appliance. Edit: It's now serving as a specific purpose, and is now limiting their configuration ability.
But for you, it's not clear. Because you have the password, and can do what you want with hit. But who you set it up for and are supporting it for, different story.
Right, and would apply equally to all servers in your environment.
What is a server to use is an appliance to the customer.
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@Tim_G said in What Makes Something An Appliance:
I'm going back and forth from both sides here, maybe that isn't clear. I try to prove and disprove at the same time, as if I'm a fanatic of both sides, and see which one stands.
Same with me. I want something to be an appliance, but if we can't define it meaningfully, we shouldn't accept the definition.
