Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I don't give a two-bit rats behind what an affiliate thinks about anything. So no, I don't work for them.
Again, this is untrue unless you don't get any money from them. Period. I'm so lost as to how you think we would not see through this statement. This is so clearly not true, it's not even plausible to claim. Of course you give a rat's ass. This entire thread is about how much you care.
This thread is because I reject your conclusions and definitions in some parts. So my statement stands. I don't accept affiliate because I'm emotionally tied or those vendors have got some hold on me. I've stated many many times already, I accept it because it's simply free to do, a bonus if their product happens to be in the solution.
Sure I could purify myself and never use affiliates, no skin off my back, but the reasons for doing so are weak at best. I don't feel any particular obligations or drive to push one thing over anything else, you can claim this is impossible all you want but it's true for me and it's disclosed if ever used.
People who call me are always some mix of "I want that" and "can you help me make the right decision though". It's never pure consulting, or pure VAR. They never call and say "I need precisely a Synology with 4 bays using WD Reds of 3TB with RAID10 partitioned in 4 parts of these exact sizes". Instead they say something like "I want some shared storage we can all use, I've heard of Synology, Staples has a Buffalo on sale, Costco has a ReadyNAS, I don't know how much storage I need, can you help me?"
I can't help but think in the real world case that I AM doing some level of consulting, AND some level of VARing. They need me to research and discover their needs and help them navigate options, but at the same time I already know they are going to end up buying something like a NAS one way or the other.
For example:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
We say this because we know that VARs have one job - to sell you a product/service at the highest price they possibly can.
There is a serious issue with definitions here.
You say that if one or two vendors in my toolbox have affiliate programs that I joined, this MAKES me a VAR by definition, I'm now beholden to them, they are my master, I serve them, and it's now my JOB to sell just that product "at the highest price" I can, etc etc.
This is silliness. It can't be both ways. Because I would never say (affiliates or not) that my "job" is selling people things at the highest price. I'm not a car salesman. So what's it going to be?
If a VAR is a salesman who tries to sell as much as possible, oversell, and pushes only their things, but I do none of that, how can I still be a VAR? You can't define a VAR as a car salesman, then start applying the term to people who are not car salesman.
Something is still not right here.
Not only that but but these definitions cannot be applied universally. They can only be applied on a client-by-client basis. If I disclose to a client that they can use my partner link and I'll get a bonus for their signup and they are ok with it (they always are) then that is one situation. But my very next job at 4pm might be a person who doesn't need anything for which I'm affiliated, so no sales pressure, so it's not VAR?
I might have a client at 10am who just says "set us up with O365". I guess that means I'm a VAR since they already know what they want? But my next job at 3pm they want to know why they get no wireless signal in the concrete basement and just want to know what they can do about it. So now I'm just consulting and not a VAR?
Everything I do is based on client needs, what are they wanting from me? So it seems quite unfair to universally stamp me as a VAR when I may not be doing that with any given client. Salesman at CDW or the car dealership work sales with everybody, all day. They are VAR 100%. I don't work "for" anybody in the same sense, each client is different.Again, I only reject the label of VAR because it keeps being defined as "pushy car salesman whose only job is sell as much as possible but also be smart about how products work". Since this doesn't describe me, I can't call myself that. My job is not to sell as much as possible, my job is to accomplish the goals needed by the client. So what then? Maybe I'm just a bad VAR? I don't know.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Absolutely, no one is questioning WHY you did it or why you felt it was an obvious move. It's easy when doing that kind of consulting to see simple money and think "why not just make that since I just did an action that got me to this point anyway." We totally get that. It's just that many of us have done this for a long time and have had to put thought into what being a consultant means, and many of us have been customers and know what needs to happen to keep people unbiased and we have all had very regular dealings with resellers who style themselves as consultants - it's possibly the biggest problem in SMB IT. And it isn't casual, it's downright criminal. People effectively steal tens of thousands of dollars from little companies every day under the program of reselling things but pretending to solely represent the customer's interest in a research activity.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Remember - we are primarily talking about engagements where you are specifically PAID to give an opinion. In that situation, it is unethical to get a kickback for something you suggest.
Unless it is disclosed. It's always okay if everyone knows about it.
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@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Sketchy, but honest. So not unethical. But certainly weird and/or sketchy.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Some people hold the absolute idea that affiliate means bias and scam.
No, affiliate means bias, not scam. Not disclosing it is the scam. Don't keep mixing the two. Totally different issues.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Scott suggested that there is a legal issue involved. If a client "finds out" they had purchased something which came from the consultant and happened to be affiliate, what law is being broken? The consultant didn't reveal it, but the client didn't ask.
It's civil contract law. Client is not required to ask, anyone being hired in a client representation role is required to disclose. If I did this to a customer, they could come after me using "bad faith." I covered this earlier but it probably got buried in the thread. You breached your implied contract with the client.
You could try to argue that the non-disclosure was accidental. But you can be sure that they would get other customers to talk. And then they'd be talking to lawyers, too.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Considering almost the entire "free" internet works off the affiliate/ad model, people are more and more getting used to the idea that "if I give you this link, it's probably an affiliate". Everybody trying to make money online is hooked up to Amazon, Clickbank, Ratuken, et al.
Right. And we also know that that means that the affiliates are the "employer", not the person getting services for free. And we know that there is bias based on that money. So the common knowledge that has been gathered from how the free Internet is what we are applying here - people now know that when they aren't the ones paying for advice, someone else is paying to sell to them. We are simply taking this and applying it to your situation.
When the vendor pays, you represent them. When the customer pays, you represent the customer. When they both pay.... that's when we get complexities. The free Internet works because there is no customer, just people looking at free content in exchange for being sold to.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So is the horse before the cart? Or not? Are people corrupt and unavoidably biased when they use affiliates, or can be be pure and objective but still use the affiliate as a means of extra payment or bonus?
Again... corruption is around the disclosure, not the affiliate program.
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Why would it have to be disclosed?
A store doesn't disclose profit.
You don't know what your Happy Meal cost McDonald's to produce.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's good to ask, but it is required that they tell whether someone asks or not in a situation where it applies.
For example, what if I resold Netgear equipment. I do consulting and I recommend Dell equipment. I need not disclose that I had a bias away from Dell. I probably should, but I don't have to. But if I consult and recommend Netgear, I must disclose that I'm getting paid to make that recommendation. I can explain why I'm not overly biased by that, but I must tell them, every time.
Disclaimer: I do NOT sell Netgear. It's an example.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It's the same thing, you don't know them, so find out. Or DON'T find out, and put blind trust that they are objective.
Caveat Emptor is great life advice, but very bad for a consultant to use as their own motto. This suggests the idea that the consultant in question is the enemy of his clients and out to get them, rather than doing their job and working for them. Of course, clients SHOULD question everything and audit their consultants. But consultants should also make customers not have to.
Don't be the consultant that proves why the customer should have been wary. Be the one that rewards their trust.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
It is correct, we don't know each other, you don't really "know" the consultant you just hired. So do you ask them before any work is done, "if you are on commissions or use affiliates, I can't work with you?"
It's good to ask, but it is required that they tell whether someone asks or not in a situation where it applies.
For example, what if I resold Netgear equipment. I do consulting and I recommend Dell equipment. I need not disclose that I had a bias away from Dell. I probably should, but I don't have to. But if I consult and recommend Netgear, I must disclose that I'm getting paid to make that recommendation. I can explain why I'm not overly biased by that, but I must tell them, every time.
Disclaimer: I do NOT sell Netgear. It's an example.
But, a consultant, you'd expect to be looking at the wide range of everything.
A VAR (that I trust), I'd expect to have a great knowledge of things they support for whatever reason (probably money) and always recommend those things.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@IRJ said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
They have zero say in the final analysis. I don't send them the estimates and invoices, they don't send me anything. If their product happens to be the right solution, then a bonus is there.
Here's a question - Why do you deserve the bonus? You did a job, you were paid for that job - consulting fee. Why do you deserve a bonus for doing that job? Why doesn't the client deserve a discount instead?
Excellent question.
In previous jobs for some residential clients or non-profits I literally gave them extra discount for using the affiliates.
Don't misunderstand me, I literally have 3 affiliates to my name. Amazon, InMotion, and I think VULTR. I signed up BECAUSE I love them, not because of wanting the most kickbacks. I only think of it as free money. But obviously this raises a lot of ethical questions for people.
Again, this isn't about you - this is more - would some stranger think you're taking advantage of them... if they paid you $50 for an opinion, and if they buy a product on your opinion list you get affiliate kickback money - will they be OK with that? it's about what the other guy thinks.. not what you think.
Hell I think the "for Dummy's" series is a horrible name the first time I saw those I thought it would tank.. what the hell do I know? Look around today, there are dozens of 'for Dummy's' books, clearly other people thought the name was catchy, and it worked.
If somebody says my service is $250, but if you buy from Amazon, I will only charge $235 sounds really sketchy to me.
Haha yeah, but surprisingly, not for some people whose eyes glaze over at the thought of saving $15 bucks. Especially a non-profit. They still use Win XP on computers taken from Good Will.
Well, I believe most non-profits are scams themselves (not all, but definitely most) so of course they like these systems. Non-profit IT will very likely ask for a kick back themselves! Super common.
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@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.
Yes, and those people are called salespeople. People who actually do it for free, don't get paid at all. People who do what you describe are sales people, it's that simple.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
Then do the even better thing - tell that customer - hey as an FYI, if you buy this chevy, chevy is sending me $20 - just an FYI. Why don't you want to do that?
Because then the client would want that.
Is the argument here just to charge more up front for consulting, and ditch the reseller fees?
If you need that money, then yes! and see - we are right back to what motivates you? Money does, because you want that $20 bucks.
Exactly, it's a motivating factor, it can't be denied. Any time it is non-motivating, we'd happily leave it behind.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@Dashrender said
This would depend on your contracts. If you had a situation like JB mentioned.. he's hired to consult.. he gives them their options (no purchase links in those option.. just equipment lists).. then they decide to hire him to do the work.. now he can use whatever links he wants, he's now a VAR. This is still a fine line though.. especially if you assume that it's likely that they will hire you in the first place to do the end work, then you still have the potential to look shady suggesting products you get a kick back on.
Right, if you only make recommendations for products you get kickback on, what's the difference?
Not much, you are still operating as a VAR, if I'm reading the description correctly.
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@scottalanmiller said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Some people have moved on and just find it part of normal life. Most people actually provide their advice and knowledge for free, so using affiliates for everything is their only form of payment.
Yes, and those people are called salespeople. People who actually do it for free, don't get paid at all. People who do what you describe are sales people, it's that simple.
So a sales person could be suepr technical, and really know how to implement something. But if they do that for free and only make money from the sale ... they are 100% a salesperson?
Wouldn't that be a VAR?
I consider a salesperson someone who doesn't know the product that well and is purely selling.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
I consider a salesperson someone who doesn't know the product that well and is purely selling.
Well that would be the mistake. Nothing in doing sales even remotely suggests that.
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@BRRABill said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
So a sales person could be suepr technical, and really know how to implement something. But if they do that for free and only make money from the sale ... they are 100% a salesperson?
Wouldn't that be a VAR?
Correct and correct. People who are compensated through sales are salespeople. Whether they make sales by buying you a drink, showing some cleavage, knowing their product, having a low price, being in the right place at the right time or adding in some incentivized advice... they are sales people.
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@Dashrender said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
@guyinpv said in Home business ideas for transition out of 9-5?:
Probably the best idea really. But then again, if they can also hire me to implement, and one of my recommended solutions happens to be affiliate
and Scott has said that this is what NTG struggles with all the time. A huge difference there is that they have consultant, Scott, and they implementors, Gene, etc. Keeping these roles separate enables the consult to remain a bit more unbiased as long as he doesn't know who or what is an affiliate with the company.
And there IS bias. But we often mention that AND it is always disclosed (everyone knows that we offer the implementation.)
