What Are You Doing Right Now
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@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy for what, though? It's just laziness from what I can tell.
Where do you get lazieness from? You honestly think this person is thinking meh, I really don't want to do this, but instead of saying nah, I'm lazy and don't want to do they are making up this moral dilemma.
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
It's a random empathy. They need empathy for the company, too.
This is a huge failing in most places. I'm not sure where the responsibility really lies here - the company to make the employees love the company, or employees from within wanting to see their employer succeed and prosper.
I wonder if low pay has a role to play in this? If people are financially challenged, I'm guessing they have less care about their company, versus companies that have a larger population that makes a decent wage. -
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy for what, though? It's just laziness from what I can tell.
Where do you get lazieness from? You honestly think this person is thinking meh, I really don't want to do this, but instead of saying nah, I'm lazy and don't want to do they are making up this moral dilemma.
There is no moral dilemma at all. They have a job to do and a responsibility. There is no moral issue with providing concrete data, no opinion to be added, no grey area. There is just "doing the right thing and doing their job" or "doing the wrong thing and not doing their job." Assuming that they are not evil and trying to actively cover something up, what motivation other than laziness do you see?
Yes, I absolutely think that they are lazy and don't want to be bothered. I've seen this stated directly on SW, people who are actually angry that they were asked to do work and try to push it off to someone else. Actual anger! The laziness in similar cases is directly stated sometimes.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
This is a huge failing in most places. I'm not sure where the responsibility really lies here - the company to make the employees love the company, or employees from within wanting to see their employer succeed and prosper.
It doesn't require empathy to "follow instructions", though. Empathy for the company would be above and beyond. Not that that is bad, that's great. But in this situation, empathy for someone trying to hide what they are doing that turns into action is actively breaking solid rules.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
I wonder if low pay has a role to play in this? If people are financially challenged, I'm guessing they have less care about their company, versus companies that have a larger population that makes a decent wage.
You are saying that low pay may make people act unethically? Seems a stretch, but statistics do often back that up.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy for what, though? It's just laziness from what I can tell.
Where do you get lazieness from? You honestly think this person is thinking meh, I really don't want to do this, but instead of saying nah, I'm lazy and don't want to do they are making up this moral dilemma.
There is no moral dilemma at all. They have a job to do and a responsibility. There is no moral issue with providing concrete data, no opinion to be added, no grey area. There is just "doing the right thing and doing their job" or "doing the wrong thing and not doing their job." Assuming that they are not evil and trying to actively cover something up, what motivation other than laziness do you see?
You're completely logical look at this is of course correct. The reality is that most people are ruled by their emotions, this person feels like he's being used to injure someone. You nor I can change his feelings. Do his feeling make sense? Of course not, to us.
Yes, I absolutely think that they are lazy and don't want to be bothered. I've seen this stated directly on SW, people who are actually angry that they were asked to do work and try to push it off to someone else. Actual anger! The laziness in similar cases is directly stated sometimes.
I'll give you that some in the past are guilty of this, I don't think you can lump this guy in with them until he admits his desire to not work. To me it's clear that he's facing personal emotional dilemma. From his post, I don't get the impression that if he was asked to provide on going logs from a server that's suspected of being hacked, that he would ask a question like this. The human involvement, in my opinion is the only thing that makes this guy question his role.
What's even more odd though it that he did ask the question - does IT have the responsibility... that does seem like an auto answer of, of course it does, as long as the company has tasked them with tracking the data.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy for what, though? It's just laziness from what I can tell.
Where do you get lazieness from? You honestly think this person is thinking meh, I really don't want to do this, but instead of saying nah, I'm lazy and don't want to do they are making up this moral dilemma.
There is no moral dilemma at all. They have a job to do and a responsibility. There is no moral issue with providing concrete data, no opinion to be added, no grey area. There is just "doing the right thing and doing their job" or "doing the wrong thing and not doing their job." Assuming that they are not evil and trying to actively cover something up, what motivation other than laziness do you see?
You're completely logical look at this is of course correct. The reality is that most people are ruled by their emotions, this person feels like he's being used to injure someone. You nor I can change his feelings. Do his feeling make sense? Of course not, to us.
Maybe he feels that way, if so he did not state it as such. He stated his query purely about if they needed to do the work asked of them. No implication like you are mentioning. That he has those feelings would be purely something added to the conversation here, none of that was implied by the thread. Impossible? Of course not, but it's not in the original question. Not stated, nor in the tone of the wording. He did make it clear that the user was wrong and HR was right, without a hint of sympathy for the abuser, only for IT having to "work".
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
What's even more odd though it that he did ask the question - does IT have the responsibility... that does seem like an auto answer of, of course it does, as long as the company has tasked them with tracking the data.
Right. This is why to me it sounds like laziness and I don't see any empathy displayed for the abuser.
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Empathy I would expect in him asking if he should voluntarily produce comparative logs to show what average looked like to show that the abuser was within normal ranges. His response is not one of wanting to help the abuser, just one of not wanting to be bothered.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
What's even more odd though it that he did ask the question - does IT have the responsibility... that does seem like an auto answer of, of course it does, as long as the company has tasked them with tracking the data.
Right. This is why to me it sounds like laziness and I don't see any empathy displayed for the abuser.
If you look at a single post in a vacuum, sure, I suppose you can jump to this conclusion.
But following the thread (reading it now) I see this post.
lahimakonem wrote:Josh_Cunning wrote:
I think what your getting at comes back to trust/faith in your company. If you start questioning decisions like this you have a lot bigger problems. If the employee was a friend then I would feel a little conflicted. I would hope that my friend had enough common sense to see it coming.
The employee is not a friend but its someone ive worked with for a while and gotten to know them as a co-worker. I know im supposed to "just do it", but im also human and its not easy to see someone go down ...
This gives the impression that this question comes from empathy.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
What's even more odd though it that he did ask the question - does IT have the responsibility... that does seem like an auto answer of, of course it does, as long as the company has tasked them with tracking the data.
Right. This is why to me it sounds like laziness and I don't see any empathy displayed for the abuser.
If you look at a single post in a vacuum, sure, I suppose you can jump to this conclusion.
But following the thread (reading it now) I see this post.
lahimakonem wrote:Josh_Cunning wrote:
I think what your getting at comes back to trust/faith in your company. If you start questioning decisions like this you have a lot bigger problems. If the employee was a friend then I would feel a little conflicted. I would hope that my friend had enough common sense to see it coming.
The employee is not a friend but its someone ive worked with for a while and gotten to know them as a co-worker. I know im supposed to "just do it", but im also human and its not easy to see someone go down ...
This gives the impression that this question comes from empathy.
Ah, I see. That does add another facet. That was not in his question that I was responding to.
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@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy I would expect in him asking if he should voluntarily produce comparative logs to show what average looked like to show that the abuser was within normal ranges. His response is not one of wanting to help the abuser, just one of not wanting to be bothered.
This doesn't surprise me that you'd offer this solution. But this also, to me, implies a greater closeness to the person in question, because you are offering to do more work in defense of your associate.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
This gives the impression that this question comes from empathy.
I don't read it quite the same even still. If it was empathy, it would be equally applied to everyone whether he knew them or not. This is about a friend and sounds like he's happily throw a stranger under the bus but is wondering if he should treat his own friends differently than employees that have not gained favour with IT.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy I would expect in him asking if he should voluntarily produce comparative logs to show what average looked like to show that the abuser was within normal ranges. His response is not one of wanting to help the abuser, just one of not wanting to be bothered.
This doesn't surprise me that you'd offer this solution. But this also, to me, implies a greater closeness to the person in question, because you are offering to do more work in defense of your associate.
It's implied in the empathy. Unless you are pointing out that laziness is the driving factor
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@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
@scottalanmiller said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Empathy I would expect in him asking if he should voluntarily produce comparative logs to show what average looked like to show that the abuser was within normal ranges. His response is not one of wanting to help the abuser, just one of not wanting to be bothered.
This doesn't surprise me that you'd offer this solution. But this also, to me, implies a greater closeness to the person in question, because you are offering to do more work in defense of your associate.
It's implied in the empathy. Unless you are pointing out that laziness is the driving factor
I don't think you can assume your personal desire to jump in and offer solutions, and someone not doing so as laziness, but, in knowing you now, I know that you really do see those as the same thing, but I'd be willing to bet that the masses don't feel that way.
Of course, if general people were as methodical as you are, then they would agree with you, but the reality is that most just aren't. As you've stated in the past, you and your dad are rare cats, the way you look at things is unusual, definitely offering great value to businesses, but what I'd calling falling outside of the typical human equation.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
I don't think you can assume your personal desire to jump in and offer solutions, and someone not doing so as laziness, but, in knowing you now, I know that you really do see those as the same thing, but I'd be willing to bet that the masses don't feel that way.
So what you've said is that he has empathy that is only expressed as laziness, but that laziness isn't then the cause? I think you just proved my original point. Empathy might play a role, but laziness is the real driver - because the only thing he's using his empathy for, then, is to justify the laziness.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
Of course, if general people were as methodical as you are, then they would agree with you, but the reality is that most just aren't.
What might cause that.... hmmmm... not willing to put in the effort.... let's see is that empath, no that's not right, is it... oh yeah, laziness.
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@Dashrender said in What Are You Doing Right Now:
As you've stated in the past, you and your dad are rare cats, the way you look at things is unusual, definitely offering great value to businesses, but what I'd calling falling outside of the typical human equation.
This is where I think we find the root of the issue. Am I a rare cat because I'm smarter, or less lazy. I can tell you, it's not from being smarter. You see this as me being methodical, I see it as being less lazy.
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It's convenient to say that the person in question isn't methodical, it sounds good. It sounds acceptable. It's socially acceptable to justify his actions that way. But if he was unable of being that methodical he's not very useful as a human being and the statement that you are making is actually quite horrific. What you are actually stating, without wanting to say it, is that he just isn't taking the time or effort to be methodical and examine the situation. Less effort put into that we are giving it, in fact.
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If the end result was anything other than "getting out of doing my job", I would have a very different opinion of the likely causes and drivers of the question. If a person falls and gets hurt in the street in front of your car, do you...
- Drive over them
- Stop and wait for them to heal
- Stop, get out and help them
If you have empathy, you assume you will get out and help, within reason and legality. It you are lazy, you'll just stop and wait. When you have empathy with someone it implies that you feel their pain - that would not be expected to result in you risking your job to not help them. That's neither logical nor an expected emotional response.
And if the reason that they didn't think through the fact that they were being lazy is because they were being lazy... it seems to circle around to the same thing no matter how we dice it.
I'm not saying that they have zero empathy, only that it doesn't come through as the main driver of their actions.
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There's at least a fourth option, drive around them.
