American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?



  • I created a new topic for this since it's long.

    @scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:

    Clinton campaign 'hacked' along with other Democratic groups
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-36927523

    I don't see why Americans bother, the Electoral College creates a 5% chance that the unpopular person will win. I love the utterly moronic excuses people are told as to why it exists, like:

    1. Without it then politicians would only campaign in the big cities, it forces them to spread out. Well, considering only 7% of Americans live in cities over 1 million people, that makes no mathematical sense. And I guess it's better they need only campaign in swing states then? In the last election the candidates only visited 18 out of the 50 states, and most of those were less than five times, and half of them only once, and their focus wasn't even the biggest states.
    2. It gives small states the same power as big states or makes the big states less powerful. So, votes count more if you're in a small state and that's good? What?

    It's basically the inverted pyramid of doom for voting, and just like that tons of people praise it. I'm shocked and horrified when "liberal" and "conservative" politicians and media pundits praise it as anything other than stupid.

    It's uniquely American that the idea that people in cities should have less voting power than those who aren't, even though the Electoral College has nothing to do with that. It reminds me of Americans often believing Daylight Saving Time is because of farmers, as if they need the time to change in order to plant/harvest better.

    The real reason it exists is to be undemocratic and unfair, really, no seriously, read about it on Wikipedia. Yes, I know Wikipedia is not a "source", but .. sidebar: ever notice how when people agree with something on Wikipedia, it's a source, but when they disagree suddenly Wikipedia is unreliable? Fascinating.

    Every American election plenty of Americans criticise it as undemocratic and unfair, and I agree, especially because basically nobody on Earth does it this way, because it's so inefficient and stupid. However, the American media loves to defend it and when others criticise it in op-ed pieces or whatever, the comments come out of the woodwork of people defending it because of "big cities" and "small states," reasons which aren't even true nor logical.

    For a country that prides itself on being a democracy (even though it isn't one) they sure make a lot of excuses for the electoral college as being superior and a better way to do things. If I may steal someone else's great analogy: "if sport games had a 5% chance that the team with less points won, Americans wouldn't stand for it," no they'd lose their damn minds over it, but when it's an election, it's a good thing.

    I don't think America could survive another election where someone who lost the popular vote actually wins, because it's become so polluted with identity politics, and they've lied to themselves and their kids so much that every vote counts that it could cause a huge constitutional crisis when it happens again, and it will. The recount stuff in Florida is nothing compared to the looming crap storm.

    I tell Americans:

    1. unless you live in a swing state, your vote for president literally has no value what so ever.
    2. a vote for a third party candidate will only help the one you hate the most, i.e. all those morons saying "we're gonna send a message to Washington by voting for Jill Stein [or] writing in for Bernie Sanders," are actually only going to help Trump, and nobody will get the message just as they didn't in any previous election year, nobody listens to you, because nobody cares.
    3. you don't live in a democracy, stop saying it, you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. I'm not saying it's a dictatorship, and actually America is one of the freest countries in the world, but that doesn't mean you're in charge.
    4. There is no defence for the Electoral College, get over it, it's stupid, knock it off you look really dumb when you play this game.

    None of this matters anyway, the parties are the same, and as I say (stealing from someone I know, actually): find me five things that both parties either haven't done or promised to do, something they disagree on fundamentally. Obamacare and Abortion don't count, and in fact, I can't even think of one thing.

    It's laughable and pathetically sad that in America two right-centre parties are considered "far left" and "far right", but then again I've spoken to a few Americans who have told me in no uncertain terms that despite me being from a formerly communist country that "Obama is a communist/socialist, I know because <dumb ass reason>."

    If you disagree with my post, don't just vote me down, defend yourself. If you vote me down without comment then you're ... just uncool, I'd never do that to you. I don't vote people down ever anyway.

    P.S. Post not checked for typos or grammatical errors, I don't care enough.



  • Just a few months ago, Turkey considered moving to a US-style "democracy" and the EU lost its shit over Turkey "abandoning democracy". Turkey wasn't even going to go as far as the US, just much closer to the US system than to the European accepted level of far more democracy. The media, even in Europe, carefully avoided mentioning that Turkey wasn't going to something crazy, just "part way" to what America has always been. It was really obvious the combination of how little the world thinks of America's "democratic" system, but how terrified those both foreign and domestic are of saying anything about it.

    And the number of Americans (and Brits) who have told me that my freedom of movement is in grave danger for stating something like this, to me, means that America is not as free as people believe that it is. Even if you don't go to jail for complaining about the government, the palpable fear that you will is so significant that freedom is significantly curtailed.



  • It's strange to me given that all throughout school (even traditional rural American schools) it was driven home that America was not a democracy and was never supposed to be and that the founding father's believed that democracy was an insane idea (the term was a synonym with anarchy then) that they were specifically avoiding. The American ideal, from day one, was to not let democracy happen. That any American says that America is a democracy, was a democracy or intended to be a democracy is itself, very un-American. In fact, wanting democracy conceptually could be see as an anti-American / unpatriotic activity.



  • US election system is a joke, it really is...



  • @scottalanmiller said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    It's strange to me given that all throughout school (even traditional rural American schools) it was driven home that America was not a democracy and was never supposed to be and that the founding father's believed that democracy was an insane idea (the term was a synonym with anarchy then) that they were specifically avoiding. The American ideal, from day one, was to not let democracy happen. That any American says that America is a democracy, was a democracy or intended to be a democracy is itself, very un-American. In fact, wanting democracy conceptually could be see as an anti-American / unpatriotic activity.

    I agree and it is true what their intentions were, though from what I can tell they don't seem to teach that anymore, people love saying 'our democracy" when I watch American TV.



  • @tonyshowoff said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    @scottalanmiller said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    It's strange to me given that all throughout school (even traditional rural American schools) it was driven home that America was not a democracy and was never supposed to be and that the founding father's believed that democracy was an insane idea (the term was a synonym with anarchy then) that they were specifically avoiding. The American ideal, from day one, was to not let democracy happen. That any American says that America is a democracy, was a democracy or intended to be a democracy is itself, very un-American. In fact, wanting democracy conceptually could be see as an anti-American / unpatriotic activity.

    I agree and it is true what their intentions were, though from what I can tell they don't seem to teach that anymore, people love saying 'our democracy" when I watch American TV.

    They've always said that. The media has always targeted an education level of around second grade, before there is any historical or political education. But outside of Texas, which actually teaches that the other forty-nine states are not republics, I know of no state that doesn't teach at least the basics of how government works.



  • @scottalanmiller said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    @tonyshowoff said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    @scottalanmiller said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    It's strange to me given that all throughout school (even traditional rural American schools) it was driven home that America was not a democracy and was never supposed to be and that the founding father's believed that democracy was an insane idea (the term was a synonym with anarchy then) that they were specifically avoiding. The American ideal, from day one, was to not let democracy happen. That any American says that America is a democracy, was a democracy or intended to be a democracy is itself, very un-American. In fact, wanting democracy conceptually could be see as an anti-American / unpatriotic activity.

    I agree and it is true what their intentions were, though from what I can tell they don't seem to teach that anymore, people love saying 'our democracy" when I watch American TV.

    They've always said that. The media has always targeted an education level of around second grade, before there is any historical or political education. But outside of Texas, which actually teaches that the other forty-nine states are not republics, I know of no state that doesn't teach at least the basics of how government works.

    Just check out most of these headlines/titles (and the text below them):

    https://www.google.ru/search?q=american+democracy+site%3Acnn.com

    https://www.google.ru/search?q=american+democracy+site%3Awww.foxnews.com

    https://www.google.ru/search?q=american+democracy+site%3Awww.k12.com

    https://www.google.ru/search?q=american+democracy+site%3Awww.k12irc.org

    It's bipartisan and in education. The only people I know of who actively refer to it as a republic, not a democracy, are either intellectuals or people with some sort of vested political interest in pointing it out.

    Perhaps in Texas it's taught that way, but almost never do I see educational materials from the US or speak with Americans who refer to it as anything but a democracy.

    They do teach it's a republic and refer to it that way, seemingly, but then also use democracy as a synonym to it.



  • @tonyshowoff said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    Perhaps in Texas it's taught that way, but almost never do I see educational materials from the US or speak with Americans who refer to it as anything but a democracy.

    You missed my point, likely because you aren't used to the state level politics of the US. While the US is a federal republic, the law always demands that any constituent state must also be a republic internally. Each state is a fully functional republic on its own. They have to be. Some, like Vermont, were fully independent and free operational republics after being colonies but before joining the union. Others, like New York and Virginia, became members of the United States almost simultaneously with moving past colonial status. Technically they were republics too, but so short lived independently that no one considers it.

    But Texas teaches that their own republic status is unique within the states and is the only one that ever talks about their pre-state republic status (which was barely longer than Vermont's own.) People from the US all know that their own states are republics, but only Texas things that the others are not.



  • @tonyshowoff said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    They do teach it's a republic and refer to it that way, seemingly, but then also use democracy as a synonym to it.

    That's a new thing.



  • @scottalanmiller said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    @tonyshowoff said in American presidential elections or lol, they really do it that way?:

    They do teach it's a republic and refer to it that way, seemingly, but then also use democracy as a synonym to it.

    That's a new thing.

    Pfft you're old. Technology is a young man's game grandpa



  • This topic makes me think of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90RajY2nrgk




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