POTS line replacement
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@gjacobse said in POTS line replacement:
@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@gjacobse said in POTS line replacement:
I don't know about other ATAs... but the carriers here seem to love to update / change the protocols and burn us on faxes..
Faxes are basically free. If you are using ATAs or other antiquated fall back systems to do fax (or really, faxing at all) the vendors know you have no IT oversight in charge or are totally screwed and over a barrel. That means, guaranteed, that providing a good service or a good price has NO value to you as a customer. By needing that kind of stuff, you are informing the vendors that you are absolutely willing to pay through the nose because there are free, secure, easier ways that replaced faxing decades ago. If you could move off of faxing, obviously you would. So there's something causing you to be stuck. So obviously they are going to charge a LOT and put zero effort into making it work. And if that's not good enough for their customers, they are free to not use fax. That they continue to use fax means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the cost and complexity of fax is still determined to be a good value by whoever is the decision maker.
We are dealing with large hospitals and pharma - so sometimes they dictate the technology. We have etherFax deployed and are adding on to it,.. but as a partner to the local university hospital.. we do what we must... We would rather cut all faxes, and the new office space doesn't have a single POTS line or jack in the space.
None of that addresses the issue of doing faxing wrong. Do faxing in a smart way and you fix the issue. What your customers or vendors demand is unrelated to HOW you do your faxing.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
This is one of those times where IT is not the final say regarding equipment. Now that costs are way out of whack, my recommendations are finally being heard. Funny how that works
No, this just means that the IT department is not the head of IT. Whoever makes the decision IS IT, just maybe unwilling to be assigned to a department of that name.
I guarantee costs have been way out of whack for a VERY long time. Just no one was willing to admit it.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@JaredBusch said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
Basically they connect to our network and install their "Phone for Business - Advanced device" (I'm guessing just a suped up ATA device) which will allows up to 8 analog that connect to a 66 Block.
You are guessing correctly. It is just a fancy ATA.
Because it is AT&T, I would assume that they are using T1 protocol delivered over IPv4/IPv6 or something similar.We use to have T1s split out by an MSDT (that is what the old old phone company called them) for 24 lines that worked fine for the alarm system. If it is the same but cut down to 8 then it should work. I just hate the fact they want to charge $500 for this damn device.
Don't hate it. Think of it as a tax or fine for making an intentionally bad business decision long ago - and sticking to it no matter how clearly bad it was. From an IT perspective, this stuff is awesome. It makes it crystal clear how not listening to IT has screwed the company and why making emotional instead of business, decisions is always bad.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@JaredBusch said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also kept one other POTS line for our main fax line also (not my call).
So sorry. Look into http://faxback.com
This is the service that Skyetel uses under the hood for their HTTPS based ATA fax device. If you already have Skyetel service, then just use it there.We do have one fax line through our VOIP service but is does have it's issues. I noticed others here have talked about their fax service so I am going to check that out this week.
A "line" or a service? Faxing should really always be a service, never a line. Don't try to terminate something doing fax to legacy equipment, that will always be a problem. If you have a fax service, you'll never have issues. If you try to avoid that and shoehorn modern fax into legacy gear, it'll always be flaky, expensive, and a pain in the ass.
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@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone
, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
Signalling is typically okay. That can be emulated or encapsulated.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
With features like that I think it looks like they have been targeting alarm systems and other odd devices. I think there is a very good chance that it will work without problems. If you need it.
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@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either. Of course, there are no lines to seize so the issue should be moot.
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@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either. Of course, there are no lines to seize so the issue should be moot.
Also @Pete-S
My apologies for not specifying. This is from the fire alarm manual not the ATA.
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@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either.
Odd, I've definitely seen/heard of this before.
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@Dashrender said in POTS line replacement:
@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either.
Odd, I've definitely seen/heard of this before.
I believe the line seizure in the Fire Alarm is to knock off any device currently using the line to send alert signal in case of a fire.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Dashrender said in POTS line replacement:
@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either.
Odd, I've definitely seen/heard of this before.
I believe the line seizure in the Fire Alarm is to knock off any device currently using the line to send alert signal in case of a fire.
Oh it makes sense in a legacy world of physical lines. Just... haven't seen that used. Dedicated lines were more common I thought.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@Pete-S said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also have a call into our Security/Fire Alarm company on the costs of a replacement alarm system is and if it can work over cellular. We will then see which will have the best ROI depending on years of service.
It's highly unlikely that you need to replace the alarm system, as most commercial security systems can be expanded with different modules. Moving from POTS to IP or cellular is very common.
It's also very possible that your alarm system will not work over your AT&T ATA (POTS emulation). Some alarm systems don't use the same signaling as a modem or fax would.
I found the manual online and this is the section describing the transmitter itself.
"Digital Alarm Communicator/Transmitter
Two modular phone jacks allow easy connection to telephone lines. Modular jacks are labeled PH1 for Primary Phone Line and PH2 for
Secondary Phone Line. Two telephone line active red LEDs are provided as well as a green Kissoff LED. The integral digital communicator provides the following functions:
• Line Seizure: takes control of the phone lines disconnecting any premises phones
• Off/On Hook: performs on and off-hook status to the phone lines
• Listen for dial tone: 440 Hz tone typical in most networks
• Dialing the Central Station(s) number: default is Touch-Tone, programmable to rotary
• For tone burst or touchtone type formats: discern proper Ack and Kissoff tone(s). The frequency and time duration of the tone(s)
varies with the transmission format. The control panel will adjust accordingly.
• Communicate in the following formats:
Ademco Contact ID
SIA-DCS-8
SIA-DCS-20"With regards to signaling, this is the only thing that stuck out to me.
It has for sure more capability than your typical ATA. For instance I've never seen line seizure, off/on hook and rotary dialing. It's likely that they use a specific codec optimized for tones and not talk as well.
Yeah, never seen line seizure either. Of course, there are no lines to seize so the issue should be moot.
Also @Pete-S
My apologies for not specifying. This is from the fire alarm manual not the ATA.
Oh I understand. Just saying it wouldn't be an issue to lose the feature as that feature is a "fix" for the legacy line approach.
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@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
@JaredBusch said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We also kept one other POTS line for our main fax line also (not my call).
So sorry. Look into http://faxback.com
This is the service that Skyetel uses under the hood for their HTTPS based ATA fax device. If you already have Skyetel service, then just use it there.We do have one fax line through our VOIP service but is does have it's issues. I noticed others here have talked about their fax service so I am going to check that out this week.
A "line" or a service? Faxing should really always be a service, never a line. Don't try to terminate something doing fax to legacy equipment, that will always be a problem. If you have a fax service, you'll never have issues. If you try to avoid that and shoehorn modern fax into legacy gear, it'll always be flaky, expensive, and a pain in the ass.
We have one fax line from our VOIP company that uses one port on an ATA (don't know the correct terminology here) and then two other POTS line for another fax. Those all go into modems connecting to our Hylafax server. This has been good but when its acts up, your right, it is a PITA.
The service I am looking into are online fax services using something like Faxback, SkyeFax, SR Fax or something similar.
I looked at the total faxes pages for the last 45 days and we have roughly 9000 pages of faxes.
I have been pushing my clients with MFP's scan/print to PDF and send via encrypted email. Just cannot seem to convince the remaining clients to change.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
I have been pushing my clients with MFP's scan/print to PDF and send via encrypted email. Just cannot seem to convince the remaining clients to change.
Sadly that is entirely to much effort for them to invest. If their IT can make it happen, the device could send to an email address of their own- then run a process that then emails any attachments to that address to you via encrypted email.
another option - one my EMR is investigating - IF their MFP support scan to secure FTP - you could setup a secure FTP site, provide credentials to your customers (different for each) and your customers could update the MFP to save to the secure FTP site. This leaves the amount of work for the end users to be exactly the same - choose your company from the phonebook, drop the pages on the ADF, press go - done. Should be the same as faxing.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
We have one fax line from our VOIP company that uses one port on an ATA (don't know the correct terminology here) and then two other POTS line for another fax. Those all go into modems connecting to our Hylafax server. This has been good but when its acts up, your right, it is a PITA.
Yeah, that CAN work, but that's what we try to avoid. That's replicating a POTS line in house. That transition process causes problems.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
I looked at the total faxes pages for the last 45 days and we have roughly 9000 pages of faxes.
wow
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
I have been pushing my clients with MFP's scan/print to PDF and send via encrypted email. Just cannot seem to convince the remaining clients to change.
When you say "encrypted", do you mean normal email (which is encrypted.) Or what people call "encrypted email" which isn't email at all and is often a huge pain.
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@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
I looked at the total faxes pages for the last 45 days and we have roughly 9000 pages of faxes.
I just can't recall how many pages a month we do when I last looked, but I do recall the monthly charge from a 'fax service' was going to be around $900/month. I didn't even bother bringing that to management - there was less than 1% chance of that happening.
Bringing in faxes to our own physical machines, then saving to a network share was costing around $30/month per line (we have three). We might be able to save money moving to using full on VOIP from VOIP.ms or Skyetel, but that project has been to high on the tree. I say full on VOIP because Cox (our local dial tone provider) is all VOIP behind the equipment they drop on our doorstep, from there it's analog. We have had the typical VOIP related issues - Cox's network had a HUGE amount of line noise on coax causing packet loss which caused faxes to fail like crazy - after 6 months they finally found some bad taps at neighbors up the street and fixed the cable issue, which fixed our fax failure issue.
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@scottalanmiller said in POTS line replacement:
@pmoncho said in POTS line replacement:
I have been pushing my clients with MFP's scan/print to PDF and send via encrypted email. Just cannot seem to convince the remaining clients to change.
When you say "encrypted", do you mean normal email (which is encrypted.) Or what people call "encrypted email" which isn't email at all and is often a huge pain.
This is oversimplifying things. While the number is small, and getting smaller - some email providers still do not support SSL/TLS SMTP connections. Of course - the OP could setup their own rule saying, if someone tries to sent them email that isn't on SSL/TLS, don't accept, he'd likely need management approval for that.
