Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article
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@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
The original, infamous source of America's unique "fairness ethic" comes from the Jamestown colony. It was the "you work, you eat" thing. Which made sense with 50 people trying not to starve collectively.
Today, it makes no sense. But it has been drilled into us through systematic education programs. To a degree that Americans have no idea that no other country in the world thinks of "fair" with the priority that we do. It's uniquely American.
I think you're thinking of the Plymouth colony where they worked "collectively" for two years and collectively starved. Then a change in policy gave each family a plot of land to work for themselves. That year they had an abundance.
I'm not sure I follow you though. Are you saying that it's unfair to work for your food? Should some able bodied people be able to eat for no effort on their part?
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@mike-davis said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
The original, infamous source of America's unique "fairness ethic" comes from the Jamestown colony. It was the "you work, you eat" thing. Which made sense with 50 people trying not to starve collectively.
Today, it makes no sense. But it has been drilled into us through systematic education programs. To a degree that Americans have no idea that no other country in the world thinks of "fair" with the priority that we do. It's uniquely American.
I think you're thinking of the Plymouth colony where they worked "collectively" for two years and collectively starved.
Definitely Jamestown is the example I'm thinking of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat
It's originally from Paul and is famously cited by John Smith as a foundation for the failed Jamestown Colony.
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@mike-davis said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
I'm not sure I follow you though. Are you saying that it's unfair to work for your food? Should some able bodied people be able to eat for no effort on their part?
I'm saying the opposite. That Americans prioritize fairness and actually care if things are fair. Most people around the world think this is crazy and prioritize their own well being, or the well being of others.
The very idea of being concerned about things being "fair" rather than getting maximum value is American. Only in America do we expect people to bring up things being fair or unfair.
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Most of the world: I'm happy to work to be rich and so my neighbour isn't poor.
America: I'm willing to be poor to ensure my neighbour starves.
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I've actually been dealing with this conversation myself lately. "I work hard, I should be able to have XYZ, it's not fair".
And while you can have XYZ, you also have to pay for it. What do you want more, money in your pocket or XYZ. . .
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I've never actually liked the concept of money, even as a young kid. "You mean I have to work to have these things that everyone needs to live in the world today?!"
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@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
I've never actually liked the concept of money, even as a young kid. "You mean I have to work to have these things that everyone needs to live in the world today?!"
You grew up with Star Trek
They moved passed the concept of money. -
@scottalanmiller this is true. . . and food on demand as if it was made from a gourmet chef.
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But it's true, why hold ourselves back and have less, just to be "fair?" Fair really sucks. It's a terrible idea. The world isn't fair to start with. Education, abilities, opportunity... none of it is equal. To then use "fair" as a stick later in life doesn't make much sense.
By that logic, people who are sick, old, or handicapped should be starved and not given food or shelter. Just left to die. Of course, we don't think that that is a good idea. But why do we provide for some groups who don't work, and not others?
And GBI isn't about working vs. not working. It's about working for money, or not. The hope is that tons of people use the free time to write novels, make music, paint, do scientific research that otherwise doesn't get funding, etc.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller this is true. . . and food on demand as if it was made from a gourmet chef.
Actually they point out a lot in ST that their replicator food sucks and tastes bland. It's healthy, but not tasty.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller this is true. . . and food on demand as if it was made from a gourmet chef.
Actually they point out a lot in ST that their replicator food sucks and tastes bland. It's healthy, but not tasty.
Quit ruining the dream. . . I had no idea of that. .
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@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller this is true. . . and food on demand as if it was made from a gourmet chef.
Actually they point out a lot in ST that their replicator food sucks and tastes bland. It's healthy, but not tasty.
Quit ruining the dream. . . I had no idea of that. .
That's why Sisko's dad runs a restaurant, REAL food.
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Restaurants and other low income service industries would be more likely to thrive under GBI as well. Think of how many restaurants fail, that would be less likely. Businesses that are more marginal today would blossom.
Think of all of those little main street shops that don't quite make enough money to keep the owners fed, so they shut down. Suddenly, people wanting to run little restaurants, cafes, ice cream parlours, stores, galleries, etc. would be able to afford to do so.
I think a lot of people miss that the average person really wants to work, just not in awful jobs.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
Definitely Jamestown is the example I'm thinking of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat
It's originally from Paul and is famously cited by John Smith as a foundation for the failed Jamestown Colony.That's interesting. The same thing happened to the Plymouth colony at about the same time. It's almost like experiments in communism don't end well.
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Also very likely to happen, is lots of people moving to fewer hours in jobs. There are many jobs that might exist, but are only 10-30 hours a week, or hours are sporadic, or are seasonal. Suddenly people doing seasonal work or low hour work are able to survive doing so. This has the potential to create new job opportunities that didn't exist before.
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@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
I've actually been dealing with this conversation myself lately. "I work hard, I should be able to have XYZ, it's not fair".
And while you can have XYZ, you also have to pay for it. What do you want more, money in your pocket or XYZ. . .Forget chasing that. More money does not lead to happiness. Look at any study done on lotto winners.
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@mike-davis said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
Definitely Jamestown is the example I'm thinking of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat
It's originally from Paul and is famously cited by John Smith as a foundation for the failed Jamestown Colony.That's interesting. The same thing happened to the Plymouth colony at about the same time. It's almost like experiments in communism don't end well.
One might draw that conclusion.
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@mike-davis said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
I've actually been dealing with this conversation myself lately. "I work hard, I should be able to have XYZ, it's not fair".
And while you can have XYZ, you also have to pay for it. What do you want more, money in your pocket or XYZ. . .Forget chasing that. More money does not lead to happiness. Look at any study done on lotto winners.
Although, to be fair, you have to do a study on "lotto players", first.
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@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@dustinb3403 said in Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article:
@scottalanmiller this is true. . . and food on demand as if it was made from a gourmet chef.
Actually they point out a lot in ST that their replicator food sucks and tastes bland. It's healthy, but not tasty.
Quit ruining the dream. . . I had no idea of that. .
That's why Sisko's dad runs a restaurant, REAL food.
I figured it was just a place to let people gather in their off time and socialize.
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Those early experiments with the colonies were based on religious intolerance, forced labour, and resource shortage. Not things that lead to success in any situation. That they were communist leaning on top of that is probably not a huge factor. Didn't help, but probably didn't hurt much. They were more like penal colonies. Dregs of society stuck together, generally without much of a clue.
The big difference in GBI attempts is that they are religiously tolerant, at will labour, and resource surplus. The last piece being key, there are excess resources making the need for labour no longer the thing that it once was. We used to need everyone to work to eat. Now there are too many cooks in the kitchen and we need people to get out.
