Discussing Basic Income from Forbes Article
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@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.Exactly, I think the guaranteed income stuff attacks white collar 10x more than blue collar. Most blue collar jobs that can be automated, are. White collar, not nearly so.
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@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesn’t report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms “shit” jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
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Look at pharmacists. An entire field that exists only because of a law. The entire field can be replaced by robots and computers and would make medicine safer, cheaper, and faster. But they have laws to guarantee that humans get paid to stand there and do work that is trivial to automate. The entire field is useless work. Every pharmacist has to use a computer to verify everything anyway. The humans just add risk and cost.
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Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
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Cleaners are interesting in this framework, because cleaning isn't a useless job, we need things to be cleaned. But often the cleaning is done to clean things for people doing useless jobs. If we eliminate, say, 50% of useless paper pushing jobs, how many bus drivers, cleaners, and other roles also disappear because while real themselves, they were ultimately supporting unneeded work?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
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A key thing to remember is that no matter how much a role earns, no matter how respected it is, no matter how useful it seems, no matter how much companies want to hire, the point is that in the end most jobs result in unnecessary, useless, and sometimes counter productive end results. It might be many steps removed, but that's how they end up.
The idea behind guaranteed basic income is that most people could stop working. And the quality of life would increase or remain steady - for everyone.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
Right, and that's isn't at all what they are saying. Having to "come up" with jobs to keep people busy is the POINT they are making. The jobs aren't needed, they are just fillers.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Cleaners are interesting in this framework, because cleaning isn't a useless job, we need things to be cleaned. But often the cleaning is done to clean things for people doing useless jobs. If we eliminate, say, 50% of useless paper pushing jobs, how many bus drivers, cleaners, and other roles also disappear because while real themselves, they were ultimately supporting unneeded work?
But as humans we are flawed. I am not perfect, I am not 100% efficient. I mean the only way to 100% efficiency and no waste is to have everything done by automation. So there are always useless jobs.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Cleaners are interesting in this framework, because cleaning isn't a useless job, we need things to be cleaned. But often the cleaning is done to clean things for people doing useless jobs. If we eliminate, say, 50% of useless paper pushing jobs, how many bus drivers, cleaners, and other roles also disappear because while real themselves, they were ultimately supporting unneeded work?
But as humans we are flawed. I am not perfect, I am not 100% efficient. I mean the only way to 100% efficiency and no waste is to have everything done by automation. So there are always useless jobs.
Right, BUT if we eliminated all that we could, everyone would win.
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P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
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@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
Where the heck woudl that go? Beaumont to Seattle?
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
It's just basic economics. Ever heard of the WPA?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
P.S. I'm still a proponent of the US Texan Canal. .
Thousands of miles to cut through to make a better "Panama" canal.
Where the heck woudl that go? Beaumont to Seattle?
Coast to coast on the US side, faster transport for the piles of crap that get shipped around the world already.
The logistics of where it starts and ends, meh not my job
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@dustinb3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Taxes are similar. Tax reporting could be standardized and made automatic. Tell the government your details, pay your taxes. Same for everyone. But that would destroy an industry. So they don't, they make taxes convoluted so that people essentially have to either buy software or pay accountants to do work that shouldn't exist. It's all busy work just to create jobs.
Sure there are industries that will fade away, happens all the time. To think that the economy won't come up with jobs that don't even exist right now to fill the void is a little ludicrous. I mean Information Technology didn't exist when my parents were in school.
But jobs have been created since their time, and absolutely IT existed when your parents were around. The difference is a lot of the jobs can literally be automated, usually at massive scales.
It's not just automation. That's big, of course. But also we just need to recognize that many jobs exist just to keep idle hands busy. The government doesn't want to report that people don't have jobs, and they don't want people idle, it makes other people angry. So they come up with ways to employ people, even if the results of their work don't matter.
Sounds like a very big conspiracy. I do sell tin foil hats if you need a new one.
It's just basic economics. Ever heard of the WPA?
You mean the bloated government program the prolonged the depression and should have never happened, yes.
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Keeping people busy has been a key part of government economics since they first began. Calling "basic economic theories" a conspiracy is weird. That's like saying that "retirement investing" is a conspiracy. Of a sort, I suppose. It's an organized program to achieve a result. Only it's not nefarious or secret.
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@penguinwrangler said in Non-IT News Thread:
@momurda said in Non-IT News Thread:
@penguinwrangler He's certainly not demeaning blue collar jobs.
He is demeaning the useless paper pushing jobs that don't do anything.
Like half of the people at any given office get paid to do.
You know, the paper pushers who do paperwork, then push that pile of paper (real or electronic) down the line for someone else to do more paperwork and then they push that on down the line. The people who have jobs simply because that the boss wont automate, find out that they go to weekly cult meetings together. The people whose entire existence is to do nothing but show up and collect a paycheck. the one that needs constant validation after completing the most menial task.OHHHH...but wait it says "If a cleaner or bus driver doesn’t report for work, it hurts other people. (These Graeber terms “shit” jobs.)" So calling blue collar jobs shit jobs isn't demeaning?
@penguinwrangler Not sure what your point is. Those Are 'shit' jobs. Dont believe me, go ask your dad if he would have rather gone to school and got a engineering degree or maybe physics, or work cleaning toilets his whole life?
Likely anybody in the world who works as one would like to have a different job. But at least those jobs are doing actual work, getting things done. The useless office worker paper pusher is accomplishing nothing at all, except wasting their life but pushing piles of paper around. Also, I think youre misunderstanding the author here. He doesn't apply bullshit term to cleaners and such. He applies this to the people I mention, paper pushers, financial advisers, etc. He actually says 'shit' jobs like cleaning toilets is more valuable than a financial adviser, one of his 'bullshit' job types.
