Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
If the only goals are Resveratrol and antioxidents (or is it an antioxidant itself?) then things like pomegranites and just grapes are better than red wine. But there are benefits associated with the alcohol itself that those lack.
Then, where is your scientific proof that alcohol itself is good. Meaning, not consumed with something that is good such as grapes for example, altering things.
There would need to be a study done with pure alcohol. Not something bad plus something to cover it up, or show benefits while not looking for the potential bad.
Example, with wine they may see the benefits caused by the grapes, but miss the altered DNA or brain issues caused by alcohol. Or mix the benefits of wine with effects of alcohol.
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If someone asks you how to be healthy, would you seriously refer them to alcohol above the thousands of better choices?
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
If someone asks you how to be healthy, would you seriously refer them to alcohol above the thousands of better choices?
ABOVE other choices, perhaps not. In addition to them, certainly!
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I would not tell people to eat crap, stop exercising... but be sure to drink moderately. That would only make sense if alcohol was SO healthy that it overrode everything else.
But we know that broccoli is healthy (I trust no one is going to argue here), yet no matter how healthy broccoli is, we wouldn't recommend it "over thousands of other options" either, right? No one thing (other than eating well and exercising and having a low stress life and being born with good genes - and even that is four things) is so important to do it over and above all else.
Alcohol doesn't have to be "the healthiest thing in the world" to be "healthy."
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
I would not tell people to eat crap, stop exercising... but be sure to drink moderately. That would only make sense if alcohol was SO healthy that it overrode everything else.
But we know that broccoli is healthy (I trust no one is going to argue here), yet no matter how healthy broccoli is, we wouldn't recommend it "over thousands of other options" either, right? No one thing (other than eating well and exercising and having a low stress life and being born with good genes - and even that is four things) is so important to do it over and above all else.
Alcohol doesn't have to be "the healthiest thing in the world" to be "healthy."
I don't see anything saying that alcohol alone is healthy. Only when it's added to something that is already very healthy (red wine / grape juice for example). It's like adding a drop of gasoline to your orange juice and saying "oh look how healthy gasoline is", (pointing out all the benefits drinking orange juice can have).
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
I would not tell people to eat crap, stop exercising... but be sure to drink moderately. That would only make sense if alcohol was SO healthy that it overrode everything else.
But we know that broccoli is healthy (I trust no one is going to argue here), yet no matter how healthy broccoli is, we wouldn't recommend it "over thousands of other options" either, right? No one thing (other than eating well and exercising and having a low stress life and being born with good genes - and even that is four things) is so important to do it over and above all else.
Alcohol doesn't have to be "the healthiest thing in the world" to be "healthy."
I don't see anything saying that alcohol alone is healthy. Only when it's added to something that is already very healthy (red wine / grape juice for example). It's like adding a drop of gasoline to your orange juice and saying "oh look how healthy gasoline is", (pointing out all the benefits drinking orange juice can have).
http://www.medicaldaily.com/7-health-benefits-drinking-alcohol-247552
It's out there. Mayo Clinic above, Medical Daily, etc. The alcohol benefits are just over overshadowed by the benefits of what is with it.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
I would not tell people to eat crap, stop exercising... but be sure to drink moderately. That would only make sense if alcohol was SO healthy that it overrode everything else.
But we know that broccoli is healthy (I trust no one is going to argue here), yet no matter how healthy broccoli is, we wouldn't recommend it "over thousands of other options" either, right? No one thing (other than eating well and exercising and having a low stress life and being born with good genes - and even that is four things) is so important to do it over and above all else.
Alcohol doesn't have to be "the healthiest thing in the world" to be "healthy."
I don't see anything saying that alcohol alone is healthy. Only when it's added to something that is already very healthy (red wine / grape juice for example). It's like adding a drop of gasoline to your orange juice and saying "oh look how healthy gasoline is", (pointing out all the benefits drinking orange juice can have).
http://www.medicaldaily.com/7-health-benefits-drinking-alcohol-247552
It's out there. Mayo Clinic above, Medical Daily, etc. The alcohol benefits are just over overshadowed by the benefits of what is with it.
It looks like you didn't follow the references all the way through.
I looked at one just as an example, "lower risk of cardiovascular disease (high blood pressure)" and followed it all the way to the study. It's based on this:
Abstract BACKGROUND: Moderate alcohol consumption decreases the risk of coronary heart disease, but its relation to peripheral arterial disease (PAD) is uncertain. METHODS AND RESULTS: In the Physicians' Health Study, a randomized trial of the use of aspirin and beta-carotene in 22071 apparently healthy men, we documented 433 incident cases of PAD during 11 years of follow-up. After we controlled for age and treatment assignment, daily drinkers (> or = 7 drinks per week) had a relative risk (RR) of PAD of 0.92 (95% confidence interval, 0.72 to 1.17) compared with the reference group (< 1 drink per week). After additional control for smoking, however, the RR was 0.68 (0.52 to 0.89). Further control for exercise, diabetes mellitus, and parental history of myocardial infarction revealed an RR of 0.74 (0.57 to 0.97). CONCLUSIONS: Moderate alcohol consumption appears to decrease the risk of PAD in apparently healthy men.This is basing the results on the drink they had, not the alcohol itself. For all we know they had their alcohol in red wine and orange juice... which are known to help with this stuff.
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Based on less than 7 drinks per week...? Nothing to do with alcohol alone.
If i had 7 non alcoholic drinks of red wine or pomegranate juice per week... i'm sure that would still apply.
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Everything in the articles you post are saying "alcohol" but they are not. They are based on otherwise healthy drinks that contain alcohol. Nothing on alcohol alone.
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Yeah I followed your other link too... same thing.
Conclusion is that alcohol is still bad, but the drinks it's in is still providing the health benefits.
You get people injecting or drinking pure alcohol, all that goes out the door.
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Based on less than 7 drinks per week...? Nothing to do with alcohol alone.
If i had 7 non alcoholic drinks of red wine or pomegranate juice per week... i'm sure that would still apply.
You say that, but that goes against the articles. That's a big assumption, not totally unreasonable as a theory, but it's just that. If there was a reason to believe that that was correct, you'd expect scientific research on that, and it would be obvious that saying alcohol rather than the mixers, was incorrect.
basically, you are claiming that sources like the Mayo Clinic don't know the difference between grape juice and alcohol.
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
You get people injecting or drinking pure alcohol, all that goes out the door.
Which article said that?
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Based on less than 7 drinks per week...? Nothing to do with alcohol alone.
If i had 7 non alcoholic drinks of red wine or pomegranate juice per week... i'm sure that would still apply.
You say that, but that goes against the articles. That's a big assumption, not totally unreasonable as a theory, but it's just that. If there was a reason to believe that that was correct, you'd expect scientific research on that, and it would be obvious that saying alcohol rather than the mixers, was incorrect.
basically, you are claiming that sources like the Mayo Clinic don't know the difference between grape juice and alcohol.
I'm sure they know the difference. But they are not controlling for that difference. So it's very likely why they are seeing those results due to the drink and not the alcohol.
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All they are basing it off of is less than 7 drinks per day of very healthy people, as it says in that study. It does not factor in whay the drink is, or if they are taking other supplements... which could be the case of they are so healthy.
Bad study imho.
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Based on less than 7 drinks per week...? Nothing to do with alcohol alone.
If i had 7 non alcoholic drinks of red wine or pomegranate juice per week... i'm sure that would still apply.
You say that, but that goes against the articles. That's a big assumption, not totally unreasonable as a theory, but it's just that. If there was a reason to believe that that was correct, you'd expect scientific research on that, and it would be obvious that saying alcohol rather than the mixers, was incorrect.
basically, you are claiming that sources like the Mayo Clinic don't know the difference between grape juice and alcohol.
I'm sure they know the difference. But they are not controlling for that difference. So it's very likely why they are seeing those results due to the drink and not the alcohol.
If they know the difference, and are not controlling for it, that would mean that they are flat out lying.
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@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
All they are basing it off of is less than 7 drinks per day of very healthy people, as it says in that study.
That represents something like 90% of all drinkers.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
Based on less than 7 drinks per week...? Nothing to do with alcohol alone.
If i had 7 non alcoholic drinks of red wine or pomegranate juice per week... i'm sure that would still apply.
You say that, but that goes against the articles. That's a big assumption, not totally unreasonable as a theory, but it's just that. If there was a reason to believe that that was correct, you'd expect scientific research on that, and it would be obvious that saying alcohol rather than the mixers, was incorrect.
basically, you are claiming that sources like the Mayo Clinic don't know the difference between grape juice and alcohol.
I'm sure they know the difference. But they are not controlling for that difference. So it's very likely why they are seeing those results due to the drink and not the alcohol.
If they know the difference, and are not controlling for it, that would mean that they are flat out lying.
It looks like they are... It's very much a correlation case, not causation.
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I'm not saying that US doctors aren't willing to flat out lie, or that the Mayo clinic is some gold standard of scientific rigor. I'm only pointing out that knowingly lying about the results of their study is... well lying.
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@scottalanmiller said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
@tim_g said in Red Wine is good for you: Myth busted!:
All they are basing it off of is less than 7 drinks per day of very healthy people, as it says in that study.
That represents something like 90% of all drinkers.
Where is this statistic?
